If only life was all that simple just to fill you in a tad more, my application to the fmc was not rejected on the merits of the case but on a point of law, the merits did not even get heard at all so the concept of justice did not even get a chance.
My rejection from the ssat was similar in nature in that they said that they did not consider that my chances were good so no hearing. At no stage of my ordeal did ANY of the agencies consider the full facts and in fact, worked to the contrary.
I hear some say that there are avenues to have all the wrong things corrected but in reality I was denied those opportunities all along up to and including the fmc, in one way or another.
What many do not understand is that from the csa through to the fmc, they all have the power to make wrong decisions and to vetoe applications etc based on what they believe and points of law etc, not on the merits of the case and THIS is the reality in the system we have.
To believe otherwise indicates lack of exposure to the system and a possible desire to believe in things like fairness and justice prevailing over all else like they should in a perfect world.
You have to remember that a csa debt is a debt to the commonwealth and one for all intensive purposes is a proven debt, if this whole scenario involved private or corporate parties then they would be called on to prove the debt and that this would in fact be based on actual and proven circumstance and documentation whereas the csa can use things like capacity to earn but at the same time, disregard capacity to pay.
Now I hear someone say that they have to take into account capacity to pay under legislation and yes they may be right but they chose not to in may case even after confirming my level of debt and repayment schedule to the ATO, this showed me that they were not interested in my capacity to pay even though it was confirmed.
Now to the sceptics, they (csa) know I am not earning the money they say I can, they know that from what I am earning that I have to repay most of what is left over to the ATO (another debt to the commonwealth) and that I am in fact on the brink of going under both in my company and now personally and yet they proceed.
They have everything in front of them that shows that I cannot possibly afford what they want.
So in short, dream on if you wish but that IS the way it is.
Hi SPCA, firstly let me acknowledge the input of yourself and many others to this forum, I have first hand knowledge of what it takes and how time consuming something like this site can be for those like you, saying well done and thank you to all will never be enough.
Even though the terms and conditions are there and that we all know that the content is able to be viewed by the public, I was reminded when I went to post by a "pop up" that the CSA had been invited to take part and shivers went down my spine, don't get me wrong, the more the CSA is subjected to what others think and say can hopefully only lead to improvments for all (hopefully), but it still shook me.
My take on the CSA for what it is worth … in my case they have done nothing but contribute to my financial downfall (the dominoes have started falling) even though they are in receipt of all relevant documentation, 3rd party and otherwise included, they have not seen fit to believe anything that i have said nor be even a tad reasonable towards my situation, all they have done is come after me based on suspicion, not fact and one can only wonder if the whole thing is "politically driven", in fairness i will give them this much though as to when they made their assessment they were not in receipt of all the facts but when they were made available to them they did not change one bit, they stuck to their wrongful decision and even screwed me around in the process of objection etc.
I read many posts and most so far wreak of the CSA's inability or lack of willingness to get to the facts and at times even when they do, will not back off or admit they are wrong and the worst part is that through legislation they can pretty much get away with anything, keeping in mind though the only ones you read about are the tough ones, we rarely if ever hear about the fair ones.
I have been further disappointed in the fact that courts from my experience to date seem to look for "reasons" or "loopholes" to side with the CSA and the concept of being entitled to justice etc is long gone.
Now i also understand that my experience with the CSA is only one sad tale of many and both mine and those other sad tales will make NO difference at all to the CSA and their pathetic attitudes because they have "right" on their side, the only change will come through legislation and accountability and I will not be holding my breath waiting for either.
I commend you and others for what you are trying to achieve and prey that you never give up and for many others to join you and lighten the load but for me I am close to the last straw, they have managed to break me financially and hence have not acted in my own, the payee or children's best interest at all, in fact they will have at the end of the day only have succeeded to place more pressure/reliance on the social security system, now how can they or any one call that a step in the right direction.
In short they are thieves and fraudsters protected by legislation, motivated by who knows what or whom to "collect" monies under any circumstances and at any cost and not likely to undergo any change.
your are correct spca, subject to me appealing that matter is finished but …..
Some positive news today … because I owe more on my house than what it will bring in the current market there is no advantage for them to move on my house, in fact the most likely result if they were to sell me up would be to worsen my situation by at least 25 to 30k, lets hope logic prevails on that one.
My solicitor is talking to them and it turns out that the camper trailer that i own that is worth approx $3500.00 was reported to them (csa) to be a "motor home" worth approx $80,000.00 (now i wonder what nice ex would have told them that) … the ags will have copies of valuations and bank payouts etc tomorrow on all and is going to go back to the csa and report same, it all came as a shock to him so lets hope it comes as a shock to the csa.
I am lodging a coa application later this week or early next week so we will see where that goes.
Moderators please … now that the CSA has agreed to a "trial" on responding to posts on this forum I would suggest that it may be prudent for posters to be very careful as to what they post and this in itself may be restrictive, just my thoughts.
thanks guys, i always look for something positive out of everything so any input is appreciated.
i have tried section 116 in court for departure (last fmc visit) and whilst i got up on part a (another action in court) i got done under the "special circumstances" bit (part b i think), now if my situation is not special circumstances i dont know what is, it is that decision that i must now appeal.
i am perplexed by the fact that the "csa matters specialist" FM Slack said at directions (they tried to have my applications dismissed at that point) that "I had a right to be heard and he was going to hear it" and set a date, then along comes a visiting magistrate and dismisses my applications in no time at all.
my brother is at this point looking at his options to protect his investments and whilst he has a registered mortgage over the company he has no security over his personal loans to me and i have no personal equity because of the sharp downturn in house values in this area.
Here is a question for all … what happens if i lodge a COA application now and request it go back 18 months, can this start the ball rolling all over again and can this course have any effect on the previous (current) one.
Thanks Mike, have no super to speak of, that went along with my former house.
I feel that the csa have abused their rights, i also feel that i have been denied the right to be heard, the right to justice etc but have come to understand that the csa pretty much get away with anything.
the "ability to pay" bit has not even been considered, don't get me wrong, if i could pay it i would but they have not taken into account my inability to pay at all and it seems nor will they, they have pigeonholed holed me, they just want blood, i am a dead beat dad.
i am going to appeal but if it ends up the only avenue i will go through it and from what i have been told/advised/learnt of late i will most likely loose the appeal, can't afford a barrister etc, will have to do it myself and i am hopeless at this stuff and if i do loose i face costs that will only make the situation a lot lot worse…. if i dont i am gone and if i do i will probably be gone a lot more.
the situation is real and desperate with little time to get anything done if at all anything can be done.
surely there must be some avenue to get this whole nightmare halted and have some non biased person of influence step in but where does one go to find that person or can't the torpedo be stopped, is our system that screwed up that there is no hope for people like me and our children.
i am at a total loss, i have nearly given up, left alone my children will be millionaires in 2 to 3 years, the situation left unchecked will produce paupers all round and me on the streets, i am not kidding thats what will happen, how is that in the best interests of the children, of the payer and of the payee, how is that good for the 5 people that i employ that will be out of work.
prior to my csa experiences i believed in justice etc, yes even after my visits to the flc, but now know that there is little and there are few that care about that.
anyone … what can i do, who can i go to, who can i talk to, what can be done …. or am i screwed and should i just give up and accept the inevitable
Thanks Mike, obviously they can and even if you are bankrupt they can still chase the debt also, even when you come out the other side.
My situation has been a nightmare from the start and is getting worse (I do understand that I am not alone and some others out there are worse off than me), would you like to hear the story as I have only 6 days left to lodge and appeal in the FMC re their decision to dismiss my application for stay of CSA enforcement action and departure re SSAT, CSA etc, no appeal lodgement and I am off for financial assessment under CSA application before the court in mid Dec.
I do run a company and if CSA is successful in Dec then the dominoes will start to fall which will result in my bankruptcy anyway, the business side of me says make a commercial decision but I cannot raise the funds, the company has no ability to give me any as it is heavily involved in a contractual debt repayment to the ATO (another story) and if I were just to do it then that places the company insolvent and me in the hot seat there.
My solicitor is saying "a torpedo is coming straight for my ship" but then again he has stuffed up so many times already, he even admits that some of my problems are due to his inefficiency at times.
help please or supply me with sufficient buoyancy to keep my ship float no matter how big that bloody torpedo is.
My situation is (in precis);
I own 85% of a company, brother owns other 15% and I am in personal debt to him for approx 300k and company owes him another 300K
8 years or so of FLC saw approx 300k go west on legals just to fight to stay in my childrens lives and most of that came from brother and the company, that left the company in a very tight situation.
approx2.5 years ago CSA says 400 per week on capacity to earn of 150k pa and I say nah can't do it, company at that time gets ato audit that results in 400k debt and an arrangement to pay at 8k per month.
when csa does coa they advise me on the 27th day with no reason, i go to solicitor and he tries to get reasons but they refuse to talk to him but later say ok and they faxed them to me some 5 days after receiving coa notice, we lodge objection and csa says out of time but we know it is 28 days from reasons being received, we tell this to csa and they say too bad but you can lodge and application for an extension to lodge objection, this is lodged with days and then nothing heard from csa for months even after me phoning them so off to the ssat and they give me a phone call (conference) only to be told they refuse my application to the ssat.
solicitor sits on his but for too long and we miss out on going to the aat and then csa serves summons so we apply for stay and departure.
on the 3rd menntion in the fmc the fm says that it is out of her field of expertise and hat she is handing up to fm slack as he is the csa expert, 4th trip to brisbane in front of fm slack and respondent tries to have the applications dismissed but i argue the whole thing and fm slack says and i quote "he has a right to be heard and I am definitely going to hear this one", I am self repping in all court appearances, solicitor is just helping me.
to court again but fm slack is "unavailable" so a visiting fm sits in his place and within 1 hour he dismisses the applications and sets a date for financial examination and that is where I am at now with less that a week o lodge an appeal or go to examination in dec.
Csa knows of debt to ato, even confirms it with them, i give csa full company financials that clearly show that whist company is paying off ato debt there has not been and aint no more funds available and by the way ato repayments are now 9.5k per month.
I draw 20k wages and take another approx 30k in loan repayments to me and i even agree (not at first) now that i am happy to have my csa liability assessed on 50k pa but they still insist on 150k, long story short is that there just is not any more money available even when you add back depreciation etc they in no way can get to 150k as the net profit in the year the assessed me on was 110k even though they had financials for the year after that showed approx 35k, yes I gave it all to them after they asked nicely ! and i realise now that i should not have so easily, AND they fixed the assessment for a period of 3 years.
all is transparent, nothing missing, no trusts, no hiding anything, i have been struggling financially for some years and will do for some time yet but i can make it if they leave me alone and my children will be significantly better off if they do, shut me down now and we all loose (thats my soap box bit), oh by the way I am 63 years old and getting tired.
so there we go, not much left out but dates etc and obviously sig detail, forgot to mention that i have always been paying csa, never have not, just can't pay the amount they want.
Hi all, can anyone tell me if CSA has ever bankrupted someone over unpaid child support debt, I am at the end of the road and desperate, I cannot pay the bill and am comming up to a court date for financial investigation.
I do have a house but mortgage payout vs current market price leaves negative asset value and the bill is near 50k now.
like I said, i am desperate in not knowing what is coming, can anyone comment PLEASE
Yes I agree, stay away from pas and gardner but not PA, PA is the act, alignment is the result, my own situation had the court appointed child physc also use the term PA in his report to the court, do not be scared off using it, I for one will never give in to the "policy makers" or those that think they are but then again I have always been a little bit "black & white".
Sorry but i have to disagree with 4mydaughter etc about PA and our court system.
Gardner/PAS is definitely a no no but PA is not … I sat in on a few cases in the FMC some 7 weeks or so ago and witnessed the Magistrate calling it for what it is, "parental alienation", yes they are the words he used to describe what the mother was doing in 2 different cases, yes 2 different instances.
If we pander to the politics of PA then we will get nowhere, stand up and call it for what it is as that Magistrate did, but let the experts call it in the court room not us individuals as we are not experts.
If we give in to the softening of the term to alignment then we are giving up, sorry but the Judges and Magistrates know full well what it is and how to recognise it, what they do after that is another story.
section 121 was primarily designed to stop identifying the children of a case and that means no names, addresses etc can be published (in precis form here)
The other side of the coin by default is that as long as no detail is published that may lead to identification then all else can be published, hhmm.
The media would not be interested in a one or two off case/s of false allegations not being dealt with by the courts, but they may be interested in running with it should there be enough cases come foward with sufficient evidence that would make them confident about reporting the courts unwillingness to act on false allegations.
Public awareness is often the best move to get change and for this we need the media, enough of it over a long enough time may produce results and i do not know of any other way to bring pressure to the fls.
Now I wonder that if this section 121 could be circumnavigated by way of anonymous reporting then just how many would put our hands up and follow through, I would but then my case is over (for now) and I won … well largely any way, no one actually wins.