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Post #24595 by Sage on September 1st 2009, 9:03 AM (in topic “Starting to Understand Emotions - Topic 1”)

Starting to Understand Emotions - Topic 1:

Desperate Dad said
D4E your comments leave me staggered yet at the core it seems very real & rational, I am grateful for the emotional & time saving insight!

I take on board all you have said & regret I get caught up in my righteousness & lose sight of the bigger picture in the game of life.

 It seems there are 2 matters to resolve
1 getting the Parent/s to resolve their conflict.
 2 Undoing the emotional damage to the kids caused by the Parent/s

Sage/D4E at this point i feel i have lost favor with my boys especially the younger one, their mum has asked me to stop calling them because it leaves them upset & if i call them on the mobile I usually get no answer & then an excuse, do you have any suggestions as to how i may regain contact with them without getting caught up in the emotional phase of it all, how do i deal with the rejection the hurt & the resentment, these emotions are confusing my clarity & judgment, all that keeps going round in my head is what the boys have told me & what i use to support my case of injustice, how does one keep mental order?……………

I only make the following point out of curiosity, can you enlighten me with an experiential view!
       It appears the systems approach is similar to the medical world where they seem to treat the symptom rather than the cause which leaves the problem festering away under the comfort of a system applied band aid, (IE "We act in favor of what's best for the KIDS") while the parents are left resenting each other & the Kids continue to be used as leverage.
       Are my views unrealistic, idealistic or naive, or is the system saying been there tried that & the band aid is the quickest fix for the sake of looking like their doing something!

Sage mentioned that we as a society don't have life lessons in Value's & emotions or the resolution skills to deal with conflict.

If there are conflict resolution skills we can apply then we know we can possibly stop the conflict, however if you have an unwilling party it is at this point there needs to be a person with exceptional skill to help gain the trust of the saboteur, (it is here the law/system seems to fail society in providing a much needed service at the cause of the problem not the symptom) in my case she clearly sees me as a threat, I can't even ask why as she won't/can't answer & now has the higher emotional ground & the support of the LAW!
Is it naive or arrogant to presume that the kids in their heart of hearts would want their mum & dad to get along even if their apart, from your experience, what is the reality?

 I feel my boys would love it even though it seems weird to conceive it! which is why I persist with seeking a resolution.

Far to often I hear fathers have left it in the too hard basket only to end up with an adult as a loyal friend instead of a loving child after many years of separation! I don't want my case to end up that way, my boy's deserve a loving father…..

D4E if all else fails is it possible to take the other parent to court purely on perjury or denigrating charges (or something like that) if so what would the likely out come be?O_o
The purpose would be to expose her in court, If all else fails & if i am going to be with out the boy's in my life they should know i have done what i can to help them be with me & they can hear for them selves an unedited, unbiased view of the facts.
She is now telling them i never wanted anything to do with them! i find it hard to ignore!!!!!!!


ps D4E what is your back ground apart from moderator?
  Sage here! Been away! I would just like to ask a few more questions before I give an answer this evening. You state you separated about 16 years ago and you have two 16 year olds and one 13 year old. Could you let me know what has the contact been over these 16 years; how often; how has contact happened; what has the realtionship been like with the boys over this time? I need to know a little more history for me to be able to consider what approach may be of value. You could also buy the book Everyone Can Win by Cornelius and Faire; it is the basics for conflict resolution skills and is a beginning point. Will answer you in more detail when I know a little more of your history. Sage

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Post #16781 by Sage on October 1st 2008, 10:11 AM (in topic “The Brain Development of Your Child”)

The Brain Development of Your Child

Understanding the Brain Development of your Child

It is important to start to understand the brain development of your child so you are able to assist them to develop to their full potential. In the past there were many held beliefs about brain development that are now proven to be incorrect. Let's examine some of these beliefs.

Children who are extremely traumatised or stressed when the are very young set up connections or pathways in the brain of negative emotions; as adults these pathways can easily be triggered when stress occurs. The happy childconnects more 'happy' pathways in the brain which can easily be activated when they are an adult.

Rethinking the Brain

Old Thinking
New Thinking
  • How a brain develops depends on the genes you were both born with.
  • The experiences you have before three have a limited impact on later development.
  • A secure relationship with a primary caregiver creates a favourable context for early development and learning.
  • Brain development is linear; the brain's capacity to learn and change grows steadily as an infant progresses towards adulthood
  • A toddler's brain is much less active than the brain of a college student
  • How a brain develops hinges on a complex interplay between the genes you are born with and the experiences you have.
  • Early experiences have a decisive impact on the architecture ofthe brain, and on the nature and extent of adult capabilities.
  • Early interactions don't just create the context, they directly affect the way the brain is wired.
  • Brain development is non linear; there are prime times for acquiring different kinds of knowledge and skills
  • By the time children reach 3, their brains are twice as active as those of adults. Activity levels drop during adolescence.


Brain Development

Babies learn and respond right from the time they are born.

A baby's brain grows more in the early months of life than at any other time.

The brain has done most of its growing by the time a child is five years old.

At birth a baby's brain has billions of brain cells and each expands and connects to thousands of others.
New connections and pathways are laid down in the brain, so that your baby's experiences in the weeks, months and early years are important to the development of the brainor the 'brain wiring'.

Some connections may not be strong, others may not be used and some are discarded.

When a baby has a loving, caring experience the connections in the brain for feeling good and learning are strengthened.

The same happens with the connections for talking, learning, exploring, thinking and all the other things babies will need.

When a baby feels unhappy or stressed a lot of the time, or has little stimulation (like not being touched, noticed or talked to very much) the unpleasant connections are strengthened.

If this happens, as babies grow they may be less able to learn and develop in the very best way.

Research shows babies and children do best if they have someone that they are very close to in the first year of their life. This is called attachment.

Loving care by the same person or people helps babies learn a way to respond in relationship that gives them a basis for what to expect in all future relationships.

Building blocks for future learning also are set up in these loving relationships. Positive early relationships and opportunities to be curious and explore lead to children developing confidence, emotional control, ability to get along with others and ability to cope with stress.

If you respond quickly to baby's needs and signals, your baby will learn to trust you and to know that the world is a safe place to be in.

Spend gentle, loving time with your baby when he is awake so he learns to feel safe and loved.

(Source: Summarised from

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Post #16562 by Sage on September 21st 2008, 4:28 PM (in topic “Emotions and Using Children as Weapons - Part 2”)

Emotions and Using Children as Weapons - Part 2: Why do some parents hate so much that they will damage their own child to get even with their ex-partner?

Why do some parents hate so much that they will damage their own child to get even with their ex-partner?

The case of Wen versus Lam shows a very deep level of unresolved emotions which most likely involve hate by one parent to another.

Hate as an emotion is made up of a number of other emotions; anger bordering on rage; extreme hurt and under that most likely fear and possibly sadness! It is generally unresolved emotional pain that prevents people forgiving; letting go; accepting and moving on in their lives. When children are involved they can become the pawn of one or both parents.

In the above case even where the child would meet the father in a monitored situation so that nothing could possibly happen to the child and no conversation that was considered unacceptable could take place the mother did not want the father to have contact with the child.

When some people leave a relationship they simply want to put it behind them and have nothing to do with the ex-partner again; children are the connection that means the relationship is on going even if there is little direct communication. When someone moves on from a relationship it does not mean they have managed the personal growth lessons the relationship presented for the person; they still may be very unskilled as communicators or have any combination of behaviours that eventually are detrimental to a relationship.

The new relationship will go through it's honeymoon period and unless the person has grown they will often find they are in exactly the same situation as they were in their first relationship; they have not changed; the characteristics that led to the down fall of the first relationship will now come to light to be given the opportunity to learn and develop and possibly this time stay in the relationship.

Many people 'kid' themselves about their own motives when they try to keep a child away from an ex-partner; or destroy the relationship with a partner through lies and fear. They did not handle the challenges in their relationship so they blame this on the old partner and then they see the new relationship as perfect and better for the child. When you have a child together you made that choice; (or it was both peoples responsibly for the 'accidental' pregnancy). The child does have a father and a mother and both have right to see their child. When domestic violence is involved a parent still has the right to see the child; they may have forfeited the right to see the child without supervision. The courts will find cases as the above case where it is obvious that the hate and anger of the mother is influencing the child.

In the past when working with children from domestic violence and sexual abuse backgrounds it never ceased to amaze me how much these children still wanted to be with their parents; this does change put not usually until they are teenagers. Children can be 'brainwashed' from a very early age about the lack of qualities of one parent. If a small child is continuously told a parent does not love them and is selfish this is what the child will be looking for. Some parents can be very convincing to an adult let alone a child about their condemnation of another person. When you are told something often enough that is what you are looking for even if it is not true; we do this about other members of our families as well as to children.

The mother in the Wen versus Lam case shows no empathy, compassion or forgiveness. This is not uncommon. We all have the capacity to shut off from our own pain and hurt and turn it around in a self righteous manner to be seen as the one who is protecting our child. (Sometimes we will need to protect our child; but we will have moved to empathy and compassion and be thinking of the child needs not our own.)

We bring all sorts of beliefs and values to a relationship from two different family backgrounds; if these beliefs, values and eventually behaviours are not compatible there will be conflict. Being in relationship is about taking the time to communicate and negotiate about beliefs and values you want your child to have. In many families one parent tries to impose their family background onto the children and dismiss the other parent and their family values and beliefs. This leads to unrest, confusion for children and conflict and often breakdown of relationship even if you stay together.

When two people come together in relationship it is like they both have their own set of rules; often these are hidden and only emerge after children are born. A relationship is doomed if one person imposes their beliefs and values on the relationship. Both parents need to negotiate to form a new set of values and beliefs that both parents and then the children can live by. It's like one person grew up in family where the rules were Rugby League and the other grew up in a family where the rules were AFL; conflict will demonstrate that the parents have different ways of looking at a situation. Through communication and negotiation a new rule like Soccer has to be developed based on mutual respect, communication and negotiation.

Sometimes, after the honeymoon period in a relationship, you will realise that you really have very little in common with the other person and also you have different values and beliefs and no matter how much you communicate you will not be able to negotiate a mutual agreement. This is often when people will separate; however for many they continue this conflict even in different homes!

The intensity of emotion and beliefs and values when not acknowledged is often pushed into the 'shadow' side of the personality; this is triggered in the ongoing conflict of many separated and divorced couples over their children. Both people need to be able to learn and grow or you will have cases such as above. We all are called on in many incidents in our life to resolve the unresolved issues of the shadow side of the personality. It is our daily life that gives us the opportunity to do this.

Every child access case is complex and these words are just a few words that would have no hope of capturing the truth of the complexity of any one case. The more unresolved our own emotional pain is the more we will attract these type of situations; we don't heal our past by simply deciding to; we often  have to make choices with regard to people that are different to what we have done before but also are compassionate, forgiving, constructive and self freeing.

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Post #15872 by Sage on August 30th 2008, 12:38 AM (in topic “Emotions and Using Children as Weapons - Part 2”)

Emotions and Using Children as Weapons - Part 2:

Paddy said
That's Ok I hope that you had a well deserved break? Everyone needs them!

Well I am still thinking about what you have posted I suppose you might mean that the way I am able to communicate with the kids might need rethinking? I know I can find a new way. The thing is what will it be?

The post means the ex will get it first? But then the normal registered post I would send would be vouchers or money? So why not try mail but with messages? Do you think that's a good first thought?

just tryin Paddy
 Hi Paddy

I was actually meaning you need to consider your communication skills with the ex so you can contact your children. I need to know a few things; as you may need to be asking this question in another part of the forum with those who have had to use the leagal system. How old are your children? What is your agreements at present about contact; have you been to  Family Relationship Centre or court? Have you spoken to a Family Relationship Centre?

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Post #15871 by Sage on August 30th 2008, 12:31 AM (in topic “Emotions and Using Children as Weapons - Part 2”)

Emotions and Using Children as Weapons - Part 2:

monster said
Hi sage,

I don't want to take away from the thread but I thought a good place for this judgement would be here.

The mother has definitely taught her daughter to hate her dad. Too bad that he will die soon without the love of his daughter.

This is an update on the father who made a time capsule for his daughter.
 Monster I have removed your reference to an actual case; I am not involved in this part of the forum; the legal nature  of cases; but I am sure you cannot put present cases on the site. I will get back to you.

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Post #15852 by Sage on August 29th 2008, 7:12 PM (in topic “Emotions and Using Children as Weapons - Part 2”)

Emotions and Using Children as Weapons - Part 2: Entrenched Conflict

Sorry I have not been responding to the posts over the last week. Exhaustion caught up with me and I have been 'bush'; to rest; no telephones and no computers; only returned last night.

Reading the posts in the last week highlights the crisis of entrenched 'stuck' conflict.  We get back to the situation where one and sometimes both partners will not look at their behaviour and emotions or that they are using their children as their weapon to get even for all the real and suppose 'hurts" the other person has inflicted on them in the marriage. The difficulty for all of us is seeing our part in the escalation of the situation to the crisis we are involved in; this could be simply be by being too compliant and constantly giving our power away through our whole relationship. Relationships that have been in operation, sometimes for many years have enormous complexities to what is really happening. I have been recently working with both men and women in entrenched conflict over children.

It strikes me that in one case of domestic violence it is the first opportunity for the 'victim' to take revenge and retaliate by using the court system to the full affect and then take delight in their new ability to force the old partner to do things they could never do when they were in relationship. Challenging someone who has been in an abusive relationship to 'play' fair has its limitations in this case they simply did not return to look at what they were now doing or even how they were part of the game in the first place most domestic violence victims find it hard to acknowledge they have also created this situation from their behaviour. (Sometimes people are simply not ready to move forward because they cannot let go!) Yes they are victims and at the same time they draw to them the experience of violence to learn that they can move forward and do not have to receive this type of behaviour.

The harder the challenge you are in; the more strength is needed to stand up for the moral, fair and honourable way of behaving; most people will find this hard to achieve and it can take years to be able to shift and learn new skills to do this.

The first step is to have the INTENTION to continue to move forward and do what is right for yourself and your children. To do this will mean you will be willing to learn new skills. If you do not learn new skills your next relationship may be OK for a few years and then you will more then likely start to encounter the same challenges unless your new partner is very skilled in helping you move through your "stuff'. If you do not learn new skills you will simply keep doing the same thing that is probably not working or you will give your power to the courts to make the decisions and many people will need to do this for their own sake, and the welfare of their children.

The need for self awareness is highlighted in a crisis so you know you are on the right track. I started my work in conflict resolution in the early 1980's because of my own divorce; I knew that I needed to learn new skills; especially for me the skill of assertiveness. Every relationship I have been in has eventually shown me a skill I need to learn to make that relationship stronger; my strength has always been my willingness to be a learner. I know that I am still a learner and probably will be all my life because that is who I am. It is not an easy journey but I can look back and know I have tried to live by values that are important to me and learn to build relationships not destroy them.

With children and the situation of a parent starting to use the child as a weapon; it is important that you decide you will try not to damage your child and keep to your values of fairness, integrity etc. When you can't see the way forward it may be necessary to use what ever help you can to make sure you have your rights and the rights of the child upheld. If you have learnt how to communicate appropriately and you are doing everything you can correctly under your existing agreements and it is still not working you need to take the situation to an advocate. This is why the Family Relationship Centres and the courts are being used.

When one parent becomes entrenched and takes delight in using the courts and you have children involved unfortunately they force you to also use the courts or mediation. As someone who many years ago  trained some of the early mediators for Life-Line in QLD; one thing that is important is to always try to refocus the parties involved in doing the best for the children. When someone cannot focus on the welfare of the children they are totally in their "stuff'! Yes you do need to put your needs forward but you also need to be able to balance the situation so the children will come through with minimum "scars".

So Paddy if something is not working; e.g. telephone; disengage from the battle  and ask the question is their a new way of achieving what I need to achieve. Some partners will keep you hooked in by constantly using what ever you set up with your children to get back at you. In this case you do need to work with professionals to release your emotion build-ups and also to have new eyes looking to see what a possible solution is available; every situation will be different. If something is not working and you can't make it work through constant conflict look for help to find a new way.

Find on my posts the Mapping and Options and start by working your way through this exercise; it can be good when you have done the exercise to talk it out with a friend so they will ask questions for you to see possible new insights. There is no magic answer to entrenched conflict; just a willingness to learn the communication skills; work on exercises like mapping and when you have done this then seek help; clever mature friends or professionals to give you insights. I don't know enough about your situation to give you a strategy. You need to develop strategies based on the skills. Start by reading a basic communication, conflict resolution book (not entrenched conflict, but a beginning) Everyone Can Win by Cornelius and Faire.

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Post #15233 by Sage on August 20th 2008, 1:11 AM (in topic “Resolving the Conflict”)

Resolving the Conflict:

Prachay said
Thanks Sage. What you say makes perfect sense. Certainly the vast majority of the emotion is coming from the mother, and my guy accepts that her emotions are not his issue to solve, but since it does affect their interractions, he has to deal with it, and he is concerned that his child is being bullied by the mother (the child's fear when he reveals things his mother has said and done). My guy says he has emotionally detatched, but I see that he will still use emotional means to negotiate with her. He says he talks to her in a calm and quiet manner, and I have heard this when he is on the phone to her. He has mentioned things such as the child might want to come and live with us, he can reduce his payments to her (he currently pays above the assessment). I do not think this is the right way to go in sorting out things for the child - he is no better than her if he brings these things up in discussion over the current issue.

They have been separated for well over 2 years now, and yes, it is more than enough time for her to get over things and start to move on. And it is her choice to remain where she is, emotionally, but there is a strong element of blame towards him and a bit of 'you owe me' in her thinking.
 It is good to see you have insight to the emotional inter-plays of both parties. When some one is very calm and at the same time are 'threatening' to have the child come to live with them; they are still playing emotional games, it is simply not obvious to many that this what is happening. Depending on the personality style and the positive or negative qualities being engaged; this will determine what the 'game' looks like. The quietest, most 'controlled' person can have intense emotions directing their behaviour; they simply have more ability to control the emotions. Relationships bring up all the unresolved emotional issues we need to work through in our lives. Children intensify the emotional issues because they are emotionally and spiritually connnected to the parents. When I can own that my own emotions are really showing me what is unresolved I can choose to work on these issues. I then hold the power in my own life no matter what anyone else does. I know I have the power to make decisons to move forward and release what no longer serves me emotionally. Really at a very deep level it is the conflict between my own ego and my own spirit. The ego at its core is really about fear and the spirit is about love. Every conflict we are in gives us an opportunity to move closer to spirit and out of the fear of ego. When we have worked through issues often after many years we are then able to move to compassion; compassion comes from love not fear. You are in early days; even withour children involved a breakup of a relationship that has been in place for a number of years can easily take a minimum of three years for people to move on. Add children to the relationship and it can take many more years. When we enter a relationship with someone who is still processing a  relationship; and many people do this; we become part of the process and we either handle this in a constructive manner or a destructive manner. Your insights indicate you are leaning towards a constructuve involvement; you will learn much from this relationship that at present you will still be unaware of. To me this is your journey and it also can be a very worthwhile and positive learning experience depending on how you handle it. Don't end up doing you partners work for him; engage him to do his own process - I think you are doing this from what you have said. Be careful you do not expect someone to move on in two years; many people are not able to this for many different and legitimate reasons - it certainly helps if they work on their own emotional issues with  some one they trust. I also believe many counsellors have skills to help; but if they  have not worked through their own emotional issues they can not help in very complex emotional inter-plays. If you look for professional help only stay with someone because 'you' (or partner) is actually moving forward and releasing emotionally.

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Post #15194 by Sage on August 19th 2008, 8:23 AM (in topic “Resolving the Conflict”)

Resolving the Conflict:

Prachay said
My guy and his ex wife are in a period of conflict right now, and it is not the first time they've fought, and now I finally think I see what is going on here. What I have realised is that about 90% of their confict is not about the child at all - it is their unresolved emotional issues from their marriage. The child and parenting responsibilities are just a handy excuse to have a dig at each other - admittedly mainly from her to him - but he capitulates and in my eyes is equally responsible for the situation.

My guy has moved on quite well from the end of the marriage - we now live together, are very happy, the child and I get along really well and they like me, the child sees how happy their dad is, and so on. He has the chlid every 2nd weekend. He pays more than the assessed child support on time every time - a four figure sum. He can afford the sum but has an unpredictable job - flexibility is required from both sides when it comes to contact with the child and so far it has happened, but it is becoming more difficult.

Their issues are usually about contact - she refuses to allow me to spend time with the child unless the father is around. I live with the father, and have known the kids for well over a year, and sometimes the father's job is such that he will ask me to collect the child for the weekend - maybe one in every 10 times. I have no issue with this, and neither does the child, who is early teens in age. The mother refuses to allow this, and now refuses to speak to the father, insisting only on email contact.

This is the source of the current battle between them. I think my guy needs to learn how to deal with his ex more effectively. So far he has sought her approval and acceptance, and it is never going to happen. He has become distracted from doing the right thing for the child, by wondering why she is being so difficult all the time.

I accept that she is jealous - her elder children have said this enough times - but I am not interested in having a competition with her. I just want some peace, and I hate seeing this child missing out and being caught in the middle. There are so many fun and beneficial things he can do with me and my folks, but he is not allowed, yet he wants to. I can understand why my guy avoids dealing with her and it is easier for him to give in because in the past their discussions always ended in conflict.

I suggested he look into independent counselling through the family court or similar - how can he find out more about this?

I agreee with your realisation that one main reason many ex-partners continue to have conflict is not really about the child but is still the need to resolve their emotional issues. Depending on the unresolved issues of each person or one person; this will determone behaviour. The four main games are played; power struggles, the need for continual recognition or attention, retaliation or revenge or self righteous pedantic type of behaviour. Unresolved issues can lead to one or more of these being used by a hurting and often jealous ex-partner. You can not change anyone else's behaviour; you can however change your own behaviour and resolve your own unresoved issues and this means the person can't play the same games with you. When you and your partner are not emotionally reacting you know that you have worked through your emotional issues and you will be able to make decisions and take actions that are clear and resolve the problem. It does not mean that the other person will not continue to be 'difficult'; it simply means you will handle these situations in a more constructive manner.

The contact has been become your issue. A parent; male or female often find that all their own jealousy issues raise their ugly head when a new partner has a fun and enjoyable relationship with the child of the new partner in a relationship. Obviously this comes from low self esteem and fear at a deep level. It also comes from a perception by many that they 'own' their children rather then they are responsible as a parent to do the best they can to give the child a loving guiding relationship and allow them to develop and make their own decisions. So the question becomes how does your partner negotiate with his ex-partner for contact to work to the advantage of the child and also to have his rights met. Your role as the new partner would have escalated the problems; a year seems a long time for an ex-partner to work through their emotional issues, however for some people it takes years and others unfortunately will never choose to move on and will destroy their own life and if you are not careful harm the 'weapon' the child. Your partner would gain by working with a professional to improve his skills to negotiate a reasonable solution; if he is in conflict and is emotional he needs to deal with his issues. Sometimes; even if you have a great relationship with the child you have to be careful how you conduct your relationship with the child; not because you have done anything wrong; but because the child will suffer if your relationship is seen to be a threat to the relationship of the mother and the child. It is not fair but you need to navigate this challenge carefully so the child can gain through the positive modelling of the new relationship his father now has. Smart kids walk this fine line all the time; the difficulty is that the child sometimes is forced to support  the 'weaker' parent out of duty, loyalty, natural love of the parent no matter what they are doing. their are some good books out there on being the step parent; start to do some reading. Also the child can access the following website for their own needs

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Post #14693 by Sage on August 8th 2008, 6:48 PM (in topic “Forgiveness”)


D4E said
I thank you for the reply Sage, I received from it a highlighted sense of your journey and how you view your world and I appreciate such an honest inlook.

Reflection into ones self and the discovery of where people are at and what stage is extremely important, people can use a word to fool them self into believing they are on the path in understanding how they feel.

" I say so I am "

For me it's important that people are honest with them self so they learn how they feel and move from this point and perhaps for this reason a mantric chant or " I forgive " will only help a person believe their own lies, if however a journey as you have described where people explore their emotions, face them then learn why this pain is felt they may be able to walk forward with a lighter heart and use the experience for self awareness.

Because of the strength of the word " Forgive " it's adaptation by modern social consciousness   leaves little room for negotiation and it seems contradictory to express that a person can be compassionate towards a person yet still not forgive that person but in reality we move on higher plains in spiritual awareness and find this is possible.

We do not forgive those who commit horrific crimes but we can still be compassionate to this person, it allows us to move on.

I understand that I have reverted back to the word but this has been a conscious choice to highlight that situation can exist where forgiveness is not forth coming but you can move forward and be spiritual and compassionate whilst reaching that plain of love in which you speak, this is achievable by those who are not ready to let by gone's be by gone's but are ready to seek self awareness and compassion.

I agree totally that being caught up in your own ego is never a good thing and we need to learn humility, it's important that people understand how crisis effect them and how they may chose to deal with it may help reduce residual stubborn intent to hurt the other party any way possible. We see this so often on forum interaction where the pain is so intent that conflict is the only weapon a person can use, educating a person that this is not the only choice is a primary goal to achieve self healing and an opportunity to discuss issues that some in this situation can not contemplate at this point because of a catch word ( forgiveness ) is a rare opportunity.

Your posts give an opportunity to discuss these things in open forum and you do not shy away from debating the issues as well as give your personal insight on the situation and as always a well thought out response follows. I truly appreciate this about your posts Sage and hope those who take the time to read them gain insight.

Look forward to further input as I believe it will help those who need it.

 I thank you D4E for your post; it brings much gratitude to my heart to know that one person may find they are able to reflect and move forward in their life. To touch a persons life in a positive way simply fills me with gratitude of my own life and where I have touched the life of others;the difficulties of my journey become meaningful and as I shift I can even smile at the intensity of the crises I have come through. I am very impressed with how you write and what you say and I also gain greatly from your willingness to share from such a truthful place. I was reading last night a book that talked about teaching - it basically said it is those who come through many life challenges  are able to teach at a very deep level; I know this has been happening for me and I know you are also a teacher for others to be who they truely are.

When you give as you have given in your post you show who you truely are, and at the same time as you help, in this case me, you help reaffirm what I am learning and teaching. I hope in the future to add insights that also may help others and also for me to bring more joy into my life as I hope this also happens for you.

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Post #14659 by Sage on August 8th 2008, 2:29 AM (in topic “Forgiveness”)


D4E said
I truly agree that it will be a valuable discussion that more should participate in.

For some words are simply words and for the want of a better one they chose the more effective to press a point.

A word of strength and conviction that describes with out saying " freedom ".

But is it then making this strong word into perhaps a non effective token gesture, much like has happened with many curse words they are accepted as simply words that fit in a hole because there is a lack of vocabulary to use in their place.

Is it a reachable goal or will most simply treat it like a new years resolution, everyone knows that a minority will keep those proclamations with most simply treating it like a possible wish that they could not meet.

Now I'll hold my hand up and say that at times when things happen that I find objectionable concerning my daughter I have ill thoughts, well lets face it if something is stupid it's stupid and in some cases it's not just an inconvenience it's simple abuse, now when analysing the situation I upset because of the effects it has on a third person especially if it is habit forming and there are mixed signals from all other sources than the parent concerned.

If not for the necessity to make sacrifice for my child her mother and I would not be in any sort of conflict and what would be classed as forgiveness in many doctrines would have been achieved very shortly after seperation.

I think many are in this position and find they need to accept certain thing and work within limitations but forgiveness would not be achievable.

To accept that we make mistakes and that we make some doosies that are not easily forgiven by others allows us to put forth that if that person bears a grudge for what I have done then when I was in a place of high stress and conflict then thats OK I accept that and have changed from that person, if they feel that I do not deserve a second chance then thats OK too and I'll move forward understanding and respecting their decision but I have done nothing that I need to forgive myself for but simply work to change and better myself and be that person even in the face of absurdity.

I'll call for instance that my daughter was suffering from her siblings stressing about what they were going to tell her when she is older, I told her that it was OK and I forgive them because I did not blame them, this is my right and I hope my daughter could do the same and it seems she did.

Humility comes from self criticism and judgement and is a way of keeping yourself in line and can be used as a valuable tool to stem egotistical behaviour so it does have value in our psyche in more than just one are so I'm not sure I want to be free from it but I would certainly like it to not be a part of depression and I understand just how dangerous this can be as we have been friends for quite some years.

I understand that you have adopted a word as a state of mind and a goal to achieve and for you this is your Mecca but this is my question isn't this your goal that can be achieved in your life and will others who can not accommodate this goal then become self conscious because I can tell you straight that I can't see myself in a position to reach this eutopic stage for quite some years and I'm wise enough just now to realise this.

A word is never a journey or an end goal it's what people associate with that word or words associated with them. Part of socialisation is acceptance of others and knowing where your enemies powers lay, self acceptance is a natural thing but then along came society and all of a sudden we strive to achieve what society judges as acceptable so is it really self acceptance.

Like many I've been down to the depth of depravity and spat in the devils eye's until I was broken and just when I though enough was enough  I was given a beautiful gift, three years later she was ripped away from me, I have never felt so dead.

Yet here I am along with many others and I still move forward but will not forgive and thats OK for me but I understand others need more. I just won't lie to myself about forgiving the actions or a harpy.

But I shore would like to know what others feel.
 It has been some time for me to consider my next answer; I have needed the time to experience a number of things in my life. So I ask myself where am I in my understanding of the word forgiveness; I generally do not get too caught up on literal meanings of a word as I have this feeling of what I mean. However I can see how important an understanding is for me to actually really know what I mean when I use this word. I do not hide the fact that I see life as a journey first of the spirit of who I am and also the very human part of me which is my ego with all its messages and limitations and also its strengths. The Ego I have taught about for many years and I am still going deeper in my understanding of many facets of the behaviours and emotions of the ego as I carry out my work on a daily basis. I know this work helps myself and others to recognise many of the games of life played by many people especially when they are in crisis. Also I have reached a point where it is simplified for me to know  that when I am connected to the spirit of who I am I am also connected to the love of self and the love of others; when I am connected to my ego I am caught in the crisis and the bottom line is fear. It presents in many different ways and with many different stories being played out that all come from fear. So where does forgiveness fit in? Firstly it is my ability to choose the intention to let go of the emotions; I stop creating all the stories that build these emotions (even if on the human level they are all true based on many beliefs etc); I recognise that I am learning something that will release me even more from negative emotions and move me closer to my true spirit and to therefore to my ability to truely love myself and then to be able to truely love others. At another level it is like I am detached from all that is happening as I now view it totally differently; I get to the point that I really don't even need to use the word forgiveness because I realise that all that I am experencing is of my own choosing and I am learning either the hard way with intensifying emotions or through acceptance and letting go from a place that I recognise  I can be free from all the negative emotions. I am the only jailer of my life who keeps me caught in this situation; I have the ability to let it go and make the change inside me which then means I am still present but now connected to my true self the spirit of who I truly am and I make my decisions from a place of love and spirit and not fear and ego.

For many in crisis they are often so caught up in so many aspects of the messages of the ego that they cannot move to even view the situation in a different way. This may become part of their life only after years of struggle. Others make a choice to connect to their spirit and with the strength of this connection they find an easier path forward. The first choice is to make the intention to connect to the spirt of who you are which I believe is love; and then consciously watch yourself move forward; it is as if you have the abilty to witness your own ego in play; all the negative emotions and constantly choose to let them go. You are in charge of your mind and therefore you are in charge of the messages you tell yourself that escalate the emotions or de-escalate the emotions. It is your choice to move towards self love and spirit or self condemnation and ego. You then either move towards compassion or constant blame and judgement.

I am also on this journey so offer you where I am at; others still may like to add what they have learnt.

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