Please tell me that you are not using the fact that Artemis's partner was falsely accused to attack me now? I understand he was upset at being falsely accused but did not and still don't see the relevance to the issue. (No offence Artemis and not meaning to lessen the obvious upset it must have caused). I think you are wandering off the subject and sorry but I won't be going there no matter how much you wish to engage me. I already said I do not agree with that practice in any way shape or form.
I have been following this thread with more than a passing interest. I am not too sure where you are coming from, Aphrodite. Rather than get in to a slanging match, I will tell you what I hear around the traps of the legal system.
I am often in court with guys or dealing with cases over the phone, both sexes. Talking among the court counsellors, lawyers, barristers, doctors etc, the subject of men's health is always discussed. I am also very involved with politics, which means I get to talk to health (shadow) ministers, senior health officials etc, again the subject of men's health comes up.
What I hear from both avenues of information is that men's health is a political hot potato, not given the resources it deserves and not so appealing to the media(I work for the SM). Men's health is not a sexy subject, to quote a reporter. The other problem for men is their very different way of net working and seeking support. It does not work with the method of delivery, used with females. In fact the real reason for men committing suicide is their lack of a support network. Is does not matter if it is family law related or if they are child abusers, the main cause will, in most cases, be lack of support.
Now if we put this in the context of a typical family law situation, we have a highly volatile mix. The lack of support is immediate and highly visible. No wife, no kids, no house, and soon no money.
Men then find that the system is not really geared for them(for historical reasons). They tend to loose friends, as the friends are normally the wife's friends.
From my experience(legal) and talking to others, it would seem that the loss of the children is the next cause in a long line of causes. Take your pick depression, isolation, financial worries, kids, the ex, stress; what do you want on the death certificate? As long as it does not say family law reasons, it will be OK.
Suicide is a complex issue, there are many variables, many agendas and much confusion, but it can be said with a certainty that family break ups cause some men to commit suicide.
As to Artemis and her post about her partner's reaction to the affidavit served on him. Well it was a typical, for a head case, attack affidavit, that accused him of the nastiest things; with out support it could of pushed some one over the edge. Making false accusation in family law is still a weapon of choice, that men find hard to defeat; enough to drive you to suicide! I think this was the point she was making.
As for reading the papers and believing it - I would not bother, I work for them; it is agenda driven, with opinions counting more than hard facts.
Per ardua ad 'life'!
Monti thank you for a thoughtful considered response but I do disagree with you on quite a lot of issues.
Without trying to be inflammatory let me say what they are:
You don't know what I do or who I am and I could very well be around the traps too. It can be dangerous to make assumptions.
I agree with you that Mens Health issues are a "hot potato" and I fully support any funding to provide support and help to those who need it. To do so, I think the crux of the problem is identifying who is most at risk and as the government eke's out the money who is the most deserving so to speak.
Generalising by saying women have their networks and so are ok is completely refuted by the fact (supported by research)that for every completed (not my choice of word)female suicide there are 35 attempts.
I disagree also with the generalised statement that child abusers commit suicide because of lack of support. Their opportunity to get support was long past and I think the shame and the fact that they get caught is the determining factor by I am just hypotheising here.
I am not saying that NO men commit suicide due to family issues, the statistics are not specific but if you examine the available data it does support the statement that 3,4 or even 5 male suicides are directly attributable to family law issues. There are many and varied reasons and the young, the old, indigenous, the homosexual, the drug addicted and even the child sex offenders. All of these reasons and more have been demonstrated as reasons for men taking their own life.
Your statement that the friends of a couple are usually the wife's friends is bizarre. Please show me the statistics where it says this anywhere?
I do not agree with making false accusations by any party particularly when it relates to children. I also acknowledge that this has become a habit of some women and is beyond my comprehension. These types of women give us all a bad name.
As to the validity of reading a fact in a newspaper then I will continue to do it. Irresponsible, emotive journalism is rife and I think I have enough intelligence to determine fact from a drummed up issue to sell newspapers.
Anyway, thanks for your response and I hope we can agree to disagree.
Emptrix Nata Sum
Added after D4E's post. Sorry D4E I will address your post shortly as I had already responded to Monteverdi.
Aphrodite, I am very disappointed in the manner you are choosing to participate in this particular thread.
Artemis, then you should also direct that disappointment at other members of this forum as well.
You have been a valued and useful contributor elsewhere.
Men's health is a serious issue.
Exactly the point I have raised many times.
Men's suicide rate is a serious issue.
Exactly the point I have raised many times.
Focussing on a minor, statistical blip, such as one reported suicide and one attempted suicide, relating to child pornography, does nothing but muddy the waters. Is the inference you are drawing that the higher rate of male suicide is attributable to male, sexual dsyfunction - namely child pornography?
For one I did not focus on one minor statistical blip, I also brought up the statistics for the indigenous poulation as well as the incidence of young males. If you read back over my posts, how on earth can you ask me if I believe the higher rate is attributable to child pornography? I have said over and over again that the formal statistics do not supply a reason for the suicide and in fact do not support the stance here that is mainly divorce and separation that are causing the most suicides. There are no published studies proving or disproving this. I am sure there are many reasons and as stated the indigenous population are suffering as are the young men of Australia. Two other possible reasons for suicide are being caught with child pornography and the plight of the farmers in the drought as kindly pointed by Agog.
Higher rates of male suicide may NOT be attributable to family breakup. I highly doubt it, but it may not. I have personal, anecdotal evidence of this. But what is it attributable to? Exploring this in sensible debate would be welcome. You have chosen a very inflamatory way to express your disagreement. I do not think that is appropriate. I
am sorry that you have personal anecadotal evidence of the family issues affecting a male but the fact is that it does not provide proof that the cry of the mens groups is factual.
The one good thing that has come out of your rant is that I am now interested in pursuing Dr DeLeo and the White Wreath foundation for some comment and/or information. This is how to make a proactive and positive contribution.
Good for you.
Unfortunately, I do not think we will ever know the true cause until real research is done.
I would be very careful of research results and would tread warily until the criteria had been established. I would personally like to see a more impartial body carrying out research rather than a group supported by mens groups.
Anecdotally, the two suicides in my family were: My grandfather in the depression when he could not feed his children; and My cousin when his wife left him and he had no access to his children.
I'm sorry for your loss and pain.
I am very offended on a very personal level.
Questioning statistics should not have offended you.
I will never forget the moment when my partner recieved a response affidavit from his former partner. The VILE allegations were so HIDEOUS and UNFOUNDED, my man was in a flood of tears at reading them. In fact, he could not read the entire tissue of lies in one sitting.
I don't understand your point here?
So, seeing someone blithely toss around such allegations is not something I take lightly. Please consider what you say and some of the high emotions you may illicit on this site or I will reluctantly support your banning.
I have not tossed around any allegations, show me where?
Yes Jon I did raise a significant and provable point and thank you for pointing that out. The causes of suicide are unknown.
And Jon I wasn't suggesting that some male suicides are child molesters, I was saying quite categorically that that was the case. Do you not read the newspapers? (and I am not referring to just those males that could be accused wrongly, I am referring to those that have been tried and convicted.)
Your attempt to hijack the original topic and turn it into your obvious gender issues, I will ignore as I see that more as a personal issue of yours and irrelevant to the issues here.
Aprodite I think you have 'cherry picked' one single MINOR cause knowing full well it will create argument.
Why am I not surprised you did not raise a subject that HAS been prominant in the past few years that of 'Farmer suicides' because of the continuing drought and the very large number of farm repossessions. I would suggest your pornography suicides would pale into insignificance compared with those. But why mention these? because they are normal people?
That's the spirit Agog!!! That is exactly what I was saying!! That in the absence of cold hard facts that there is not just one reason for male suicides and if you look at the statistics you will identify that the statistics do not support the fault of divorce as has been spouted here so many times. I have mentioned previously the indigenous population as well as the very young males but obviously that did not rate any reaction and was overlooked. And now you have added a new one I did not think of, the poor farmers. Thank you.
It is a fact the indigenous population that appear to have one of the highest rates and the government has identified the young males as being particularly vulnerable which is great as hopefully some of that funding can be channelled into areas where it is needed. Maybe you should write to the government to lobby them to put some funds aside for the drought affected male farmers to provide emotional support. I think that would be very good of you.
Aphrodite: I like your advice, have as little as possible to do with the other as possible. I am trying, but get a knot in my tummy thinking about the regular contact
D4E: Sage advice. I should just leave my partner to it. Unfortunately the lovely man has not an ounce of guile in him. I see things for what they are very quickly - he takes everything at face value. He never sees the kick in the teeth coming. I do.
All good food for thought and I'm sure others are gaining from this.
Oneadadc give me hope: if his ex can gain some maturity, maybe ours will also…
That knot is hard to ignore and it can eat away at you, I know I have been there too. Try to put it into focus.
Sometimes not seeing a person can create the biggest issues in your own mind and even confronting it head on can help and you might realise that she is more scared of you than her.
Sometimes just seizing control yourself can be empowering. It's hard I know.