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What Stops Men From Having Shared Care?

What Stops Men from Having Shared Care

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What are the issues which are barriers to men assuming shared care after divorce?

Our ex is an emotional "deadbeat mother" who loves to bash my partner over the head with their son. She's not particularly interested in the kid and has actually stated in affidavit that she couldn't contemplate shared care, as she couldn't afford to live. BTW she lives with mummy and daddy and claims rent assistance….

Back to topic…

I think the reason that women appear "better" at parenting is quite complex.

Women have social networks and are encouraged to talk about babies and child rearing. I call it slip streaming - you ask your girlfriend (who has kids) for her experience and advice. Men don't usually have these networks. IF they asks their Dad, Dad was usually off earning - and the cycle continues.

I'm a practical person, but was just as clueless as my ex with babies. However, I was the one who got paid maternity leave and had lots of time to make my parenting mistakes in private.

Likewise cooking. I enjoy cooking and actively sought to learn. My ex can cook basic food but hates it - so he never got better at it. He could watch Jamie Oliver and learn blokey ways of cooking (who knows he may have now) but at the time, he couldn't be arsed.

There is also a male habit of, if you don't like doing something, act clueless and the Missus's patience will usually run out and it'll get done for you. She'll b*tch about it, but it won't last long.

Junior Executive of SRL-Resources

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (Look for the Avatars). Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Actually maybe "couldn't be arsed" is why a lot of Dads don't go for shared care?  :lol:  

It amazes me how someone who couldn't even pick up their own beer cans, find their own socks, jocks or shirts, think the kids are only there to restock their hand when the last can is empty or for fun, cuddles and adoration, can't change a nappy, sort out a tussle over toys or stuff a bottle in a hungry mouth let alone help cook a meal or do dishes can suddenly decide at the end of a relationship that they are more than capable of assuming shared care.   :lol:

Oh that last behavior you mentioned Artemis - it's called Learned Helplessness. Women can have that too - usually reserved for spiders and flat tires  ;)

When you are swimming down a creek and an eel bites your cheek, that's a Moray.

Biases Against and Discouragements For Dads

cooldad said
There are many different circumstances why fathers don't get equal shared time.

I don't think the judges and legal system take sides with mothers. From my experience they are fair and, if the correct evidence is put forward, they make the fairest decisions.

The one who has done the wrong thing in the relationship will always be the one to suffer more and it's not always the fathers.

Magistrates are not stupid; they work it out. I know of a lot of mothers that pay child support.
I disagree with most of what cooldad has written above.

1. There aren't that many reasons "why fathers don't get equal shared time". The main ones are lack of commitment and faithfulness from their partners, the desire of most mothers to own and control children, false allegations of abuse and violence as a tactic to gain control and maximise looting of the father, retention of the children as cashcows by the mother, revenge motivated maliciousness and vindictiveness, etc.

2. I do think that the judges, lawyers and the court and legal system are biased in favour of mothers.

From the moment a mother decides to desert and evict the father of the child(ren), governments/the State (police and agencies/departments) support (facilitate, enable and enforce) her against the father.

Police will believe and act for women re false allegations of abuse and violence, but typically do not act similarly to protect men and their children.

Then the lawyers get involved and, working "in the shadow of the law" (and courts), in most cases discourage, frustrate and block a father's desire for contact and residence (especially as it approaches substantial or equal shared parenting).

Most lawyers are more interested in their own systemic and institutional processes and keeping in good with the powers that be, than working on and advancing a practical and realistic case and orders for their male clients. Many would rather sell out their own client in the foyer of the court then support and work for him. They do this so as not to annoy the judge and so to keep in good with the system (so they can make more money).

From over 12 years of involvement with separated fathers' matter I am under no illusions that many judges are far more willing to be lenient (and favourably biased) toward women than men and are on record (eg.B & B) as showing that, for them, "the best interests of the child" is, in reality, "the best interests of the mother" - in other words, whatever she wants (is good for the children).

3. Judges and "magistrates are not stupid" - which makes what they do all the more deliberate and evil.

Likewise lawyers and politicians. They don't need to be told; they know and they chose not to act for the real best interests of the children and for justice and equality.

4. More often than not "the one who has done the wrong thing in the relationship will NOT be the one to suffer more". Women end 70% of relationships and receive 90% of child support, because they mostly receive custody and residency of the children. And get larger amounts of family property. They don't suffer more.
Artemis said
There is also a male habit of, if you don't like doing something, act clueless and the Missus's patience will usually run out and it'll get done for you. She'll b*tch about it, but it won't last long.
Artemis.

Sorry but such comments lower the appreciation I held for you. It is not a male habit, it is a habit of some people and likely as many women as men. eg. the oft-talked about spider, the broken car, even opening the car door, most especially financially supporting a child…

I really thought you were beyond such degrading and demeaning stereo-typification. Or have I misread what you wrote?
Hi matrix - I tend to agree with you and I am surprised at cooldad's comments. I am not sure what experiences HE has had or research he has done on the topic. Maybe it reflects the view of a relatively new or uninformed person or he really believes that and can back it up with information?

What interests me, is in this debate the topic has some how gone from parenting to men/woman, relationships and then household duties.

It's obviously an issue that women associate domestic duties with parenting and that that also have a model of men being lazy or doing less than them. Both of these positions are not well supported by ABS research  or make much sense to me. Maybe some individuals (men and women) can have quirks in their behaviours.

So this is about what people think - so we don't need to prove one thing or another - just capture the thinking and there is obviously still a lot of dated views of roles and expectations.

If women naturally think because they do the dishes then they are the better parent then that a view that they hold - it explains what they think - but not why they think that.

 Maybe I am not explaining myself well enough
Very well said JP.
Sorry guys, I should have said people. I can think of women being clueless about cars.

I was just reflecting a work incident where I was expected to make coffee for someone… long story.

Don't put me on a pedestal - it's too far to fall.

Junior Executive of SRL-Resources

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (Look for the Avatars). Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Appreciation back up Artemis  :)

More to Parenting than Domestic Labour

Jon Pearson said
What interests me, is in this debate the topic has some how gone from parenting to men/woman, relationships and then household duties.
This often happens in such discussions Jon.  A father may raise an issue of injustice and inequality, as here, but another feels a need to top it with a "he did her more wrong" story. More often than not it is a woman, often feminist, but needn't be, just someone who is misandrous (and competitive - unwilling to hear a man complain of being hard done by) or very naive and with little discernment.
Jon Pearson said
It's obviously an issue that women associate domestic duties with parenting and that that also have a model of men being lazy or doing less than them. Both of these positions are not well supported by ABS research  or make much sense to me. Maybe some individuals (men and women) can have quirks in their behaviours.
Point well made.  Parenting is not just domestic duties, nor just inside the home domestic duties.  It suits some to peddle that view, but there is more to be done for a family than just what goes on inside the home.  There is also earning the income, maintaining the house and yard and car, etc.  (It's interesting to note that typically in most "Men don't do enough around the house" stories that house, yard and car maintenance are excluded.)
Hi dad4life
ABS did 2 surveys of work (paid and unpaid) - they showed men doing the same as women (if not more) in total.

The exposition of the logic of the ideas that people use to justify their position  INTERESTS ME. Some of it comes down to BELIEFS - many based on what was modeled for them, what was presented to them etc.

Many don't often get a chance to think about and when they do - they are too busy or its all too difficult.

I would encourage everyone to EXPLORE their thinking and VALUES - because, I ASSUME, they will be having these discussions with thier children the relatives and friends (as they should).

Despite our gifted positions - there are still MANY PEOPLE - who simple have no idea about what separation, divorce, family law and CSA are about and hence are not presented with the PERSONAL GROWTH opportunities that others have.

 Maybe I am not explaining myself well enough
Jon Pearson said
Hi dad4life.

ABS did two surveys of work (paid and unpaid) - they showed men doing the same as women (if not more) in total.
Maybe it's perception?

I know one woman who left her hubby because he did nothing around the house etc. yet every time I was there she was the one doing her own thing while he was doing laundry or housework.

I wonder how they get those statistics because if it is based on opinion then of course each person is going to say they do a lot.

When you are swimming down a creek and an eel bites your cheek, that's a Moray.
Jadzia said
I wonder how they get those statistics because if it is based on opinion then of course each person is going to say they do a lot.
I'd dispute that all (each person) would, some would, some would also be honest. If I recall correctly, some surveys/research (Help me out here Jon) include questions that are designed to test for such inaccuracies.
 
All statistics are open to interpretation and question especially when they have been obtained with subjective  information

There was a similar survey in the US some years ago in which partners were asked to keep records on each other and the other party to agree on 'times'. There was so much discrepancy into what was 'claimed' and what actually occurred as to make the survey useless.

The attached link is an ABS survey (interesting reading because it also gives an insight into postings on this site and is similar to the 'self assessment' form used by SRL-R to determine the strengths and weaknesses of SRLs)

ERROR: A link was posted here (url) but it appears to be a broken link.
Adult Literacy and Life Skills Survey, Summary Results, Australia, 2006

There is a section in the above on self rating vs assessed literacy and there are wide discrepancies which illustrate the errors which occur between subjective and objective sampling

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (look for the Avatars) Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Jon Pearson said
Despite our gifted positions - there are still MANY PEOPLE - who simple have no idea about what separation, divorce, family law and CSA are about and hence are not presented with the PERSONAL GROWTH opportunities that others have.
Jon.

I am having a problem trying to reconcile whether the above was just a comment or aimed at some of the posters, perhaps you could enlighten me.

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (look for the Avatars) Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
This is part of Artemis' post.
Artemis said
I think the reason that women appear "better" at parenting is quite complex.

Women have social networks and are encouraged to talk about babies and child rearing. I call it slip streaming - you ask your girlfriend (who has kids) for her experience and advice.

Men don't usually have these networks. IF they asks their Dad, Dad was usually off earning - and the cycle continues.
The lack of a social network (and networking) issue actually does cause problems for the men.

All too often in Court the lack of 'back up' plays a negative role when a Court is deciding on parenting time for young children. It is often mentioned in Family Reports.

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (look for the Avatars) Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Some interesting stats and comments on www.abs.gov.au search for:

Unpaid Work and the Australian Economy 1997 - publication 5240.0

Also

4153.0 - How Australians Use Their Time, 1997

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/368156C4264E4D8ECA2568A9001362E8?Open

which I think is going to be rerun soon - discuss the methodology and so on.

The thing about statistics and studies and so is that:

1) They are informative

2) They are nor conclusive or without errors or potential more misunderstanding

3) The ABS does MORE THAN ANYONE to try and highlight the errors, chances for misuse, the methodology and issues

So having stats does not mean - 'Here's the answer' (sometimes we are not really sure of the question). Mostly stats show stuff that is interesting or worthwhile of looking into further.

Some use stats to try and push through law changes 0 eg the Pay women for being domestic campaign by Pru Goward (carers, etc). You would think that women do all the caring - but 5240.0 shows a different story - or gives a bit more information.

People do have different perceptions of who "does more" or "Is better"- again much of its is based on either self promotion or degradation (both sometimes due to insecurity). If people are in a relationship where they feel there are problems then DEAL WITH IT - don't whine about it or seek martyrdom. Or alternatively - be happy and appreciative.

As far as experience goes of the separation, divorce and family law issues goes - lots of people HAVE NOW experienced this and it is growing - but there are lots of people WHO HAVE NOT simply do not see the problems - nor are they very much interested.

I know its off topic BUT - its like detention centres - if you have not been detained behind wire - had your wife and children removed from you (victims) and been treated as a criminal for many years , no evidence, slow process, administrative indifference, etc - then its simply not an issue many people seem to be interested in - despite what these things say about "US" as a nation a country and group of people or as an individual. Apathy is part of the landscape - not everyone can be involved all the time - but how do governments get away with building these systems?

What would it take for people to consider these issues with same energy they reserve for voting on big brother, consuming plasma TVs or how well the footy and cricket is going. Sure we all have distractions - what would a well functioning conscionable society look like?

 Maybe I am not explaining myself well enough

Nasty terminology

I detest the use of American pejorative (putdown) terms like "deadbeat".
 
dad4life said
I detest the use of American pejorative (putdown) terms like "deadbeat".
 Yes there are plenty of Australian terms we can use, what about "dropkick"? All the others I can think off will kick in the norti word censor…

When you are swimming down a creek and an eel bites your cheek, that's a Moray.
Jadzia said
dad4life said
I detest the use of American pejorative (putdown) terms like "deadbeat".
Yes there are plenty of Australian terms we can use, what about "dropkick"? All the others I can think off will kick in the norti word censor…
You have correctly surmised that the site does have a dictionary that prevents posters from using certain swear words or offensive words. However this is a 'generic' format and will also block words that are commonly used in Australia. For example 'bugger' used to be blocked despite Toyota using it in advertisements.

If the blocking dictionary kicks in and refuses to allow a 'word' and anyone regards it as common usage in Australia - email the site admins to get it included as acceptable.

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (look for the Avatars) Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
I was thinking of words which are in every day use but still offensive (starts with f ends with…. u get the  picture). The Australian equivalent of deadbeat with the same start would have a "wit"ty ending.  :P

I agree though that is it very annoying to have Americanism thrown at us. I am, you are, we are Australian.

Back on topic, really I think stats are almost like the bible in a lot of ways - can be used / twisted to suit any situation.

When you are swimming down a creek and an eel bites your cheek, that's a Moray.
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