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Rudd Government Men's Health Initiatives

The Rudd Government will develop Australia's first national men's health policy- recognising men have poorer health than women, are likely to die earlier and are at greater risk of suicide.

You still don't understand that this isn't a mens group and neither is the other forum that I chose to post on. They are people groups and are attempting to help people.

Who cares if the numerical statistics are used to raise funds if the numerical statistics are shown more men are committing suicide then there should rationally be an equal percentage or more to the point comparative amount of funding provided for this. Notice I used the term numerical this denotes " This many recorded " not predetermine statistical questions.

Who is the said mens group ?????

If you wish to include the indigenous population and reduce the figures accordingly then do so but when you do remove them from other areas that they impact on as well in the same way, such as violence, child molestation and family violence.

Cultural problems that do exist in the indigenous people in Australia should not be used so flippantly as a determent for funding but should be included in funding to further assist the problems that are suffered for man, woman and child as a whole and not gender specified as you suggest.

I honestly do not know the mens group you are talking about but the only reason you are going to know why a person commits suicide is if the give the reason and no I do not believe women suffer like men do, I believe all people suffer differently but in worse case scenario of false allegations and alienation it's my opinion that men suffer more and are more confused about how they feel and what to do, this of course means that we are not handed everything on a plate and find ourselves having to challenge bias to ensure a balanced upbringing for our children.

And as far as the figure of men suiciding because they molested a young child, good ridden's to bad rubbish, the same applies to women who molest as well. What does concern me more than anything is the use of false allegations to reduce contact between father and children, there need be no proof all you have to do is spout a concern that is conjured as a tool, surely if you are in agreement that those who commit such a deplorable act of molestation be severely punished then those who wrongfully accused others for strategic purposes should suffer punishment ?

I would suggest that there would be a few who have committed suicide because their perception of their future torn from the children whom they love and marred communally for an act they did not commit, out weighs those who commit molestation.
Certain profiling of molesters seems to point towards the fact that they do not see what they are doing is wrong and find ways to justify their actions. Again other studies of victims tend to show there is a higher percentage of molestations are committed by close family members and extended family and not dad.   

My cause is to help people not just dads or men but people who are going through trauma and may just need direction or another way of looking at things.

As I said statistics are of little use unless they are numbers provided from fact such as X amount of deaths, those that mascaraed as statistical information devised from questions with predetermine answers are called surveys and any idiot can tell you that if you ask a question in a certain way you will get one answer if you ask the same question to the same person in a different way you get another answer, common sense value nil.

Like I said I don't rely on statistics. You do. I try and help people.

Operation Centurion nailed some very sick puppies in a segregated part of the community and I accept that this type of person exists and should be legally dealt with, such a shame that others have to come out and use these people against a valid cause to achieve help to prevent other people committing suicide. I condemn this act just as much as the mother who left her children bleeding on the floor dying in pain before she killed herself, a father discovering that his children one dead and one in critical condition were killed by their mother. Yet I do not associate this with all mums.

My point is not to refute but to rather not predetermine guilt of a situation I have only been fed information of through a restricted source.

I'd still like you to say what mens group you are talking about though.

This is my personal opinion based on personal experiences and not a recital of subjective information provided from unreliable sources.

Life experiences through contact with people both male and female.

My reference to statistical will simply denote that equal help be given to both genders of our community, where special needs are present for social reasons more funding should be prescribed as needed such as that you have mentioned, the indigenous community but it should be viewed complete not segregated into gender.

Now perhaps you can explain where your problem is with funding being given to assist reduce the rate of suicide in the male population of Australia ???

This is a prominent health issue.

  

   


NewMember said
Well, with due respect, we will call this "Subject closed".

This subject is likely to remain open for a few days as I have received several emails and telephone calls from very senior site members who intend to post in here "after taking a few deep breaths". Aphrodite has either deliberately or unintentionally provoked some strong reactions.

Please note that I am tempted to transfer some of the posts in this topic to 'Devils Advocates'.


 Senior Site Moderator and Administrator
BriarRose said
Sisyphus said
NewMember said
Well, with due respect, we will call this "Subject closed".
 

Not that this is a democracy, but I vote for that.

I am not going to close a topic that some very senior site members intend to post into.

 Senior Site Moderator and Administrator
Sisyphus said
BriarRose said
Sisyphus said
NewMember said
Well, with due respect, we will call this "Subject closed".
 
 Not that this is a democracy, but I vote for that.
 I am not going to close a topic that some very senior site members intend to post into.

  Sorry, I quoted the wrong bit.

I intended to support the idea of moving some of the posts, not closing the topic.

I posted that as a whisper, not an open comment, because I am very concerned about how this topic has gone.

Posting now as an open comment only because the error will be public otherwise and the last thing I want to do is fan the flames.

Wish I had never raised the topic in the first place but was only trying to help.

Sorry, I know you are fussy about grammar, but I have a massive headache.



Aphrodite has raised a significant point. She is suggesting that the causes of death are unknown and that maybe it could be because the man was a child molester. This is a standard approach to dealing with issues between the sexes.

For example lets try this one. Man kills woman. He is evil. Woman kills man - he deserved it.

Marriage breaks up - man must have done something wrong.

and more.

The technique being used is to cast doubt (and fear) - not for the purposes of further enlightenment or thought - but the exact opposite.

What about those unfortunate men (and their victims) who cannot lead a normal life. How did they get that way? Was it their crazy and abusive mothers? Did their mothers create these people? maybe we should cast doubt on all mothers until statistics prove otherwise?

Was it the total systematic and constant put downs from media governments and others? Was it being unloved, appreciated or respected? Did they just give up on aspiring for a decent life?

The men I know who have caused damaged and death to themselves did so because of family court, the way their ex treated them and their knowledge that they would not be treated fairly by the system. But thats just me  - not trying to say its everyone.

 Maybe I am not explaining myself well enough
Jon Pearson said
Aphrodite has raised a significant point. She is suggesting that the causes of death are unknown and that maybe it could be because the man was a child molester. This is a standard approach to dealing with issues between the sexes.

For example lets try this one. Man kills woman. He is evil. Woman kills man - he deserved it.

Marriage breaks up - man must have done something wrong.

and more.

The technique being used is to cast doubt (and fear) - not for the purposes of further enlightenment or thought - but the exact opposite.

What about those unfortunate men (and their victims) who cannot lead a normal life. How did they get that way? Was it their crazy and abusive mothers? Did their mothers create these people? maybe we should cast doubt on all mothers until statistics prove otherwise?

Was it the total systematic and constant put downs from media governments and others? Was it being unloved, appreciated or respected? Did they just give up on aspiring for a decent life?

The men I know who have caused damaged and death to themselves did so because of family court, the way their ex treated them and their knowledge that they would not be treated fairly by the system. But thats just me  - not trying to say its everyone.
  Yes Jon I did raise a significant and provable point and thank you for pointing that out. The causes of suicide are unknown.

And Jon I wasn't suggesting that some male suicides are child molesters, I was saying quite categorically that that was the case. Do you not read the newspapers? (and I am not referring to just those males that could be accused wrongly, I am referring to those that have been tried and convicted.)

Your attempt to hijack the original topic and turn it into your obvious gender issues, I will ignore as I see that more as a personal issue of yours and irrelevant to the issues here.
Aphrodite said

Yes Jon I did raise a significant and provable point and thank you for pointing that out. The causes of suicide are unknown.

And Jon I wasn't suggesting that some male suicides are child molesters, I was saying quite categorically that that was the case. Do you not read the newspapers? (and I am not referring to just those males that could be accused wrongly, I am referring to those that have been tried and convicted.)

Your attempt to hijack the original topic and turn it into your obvious gender issues, I will ignore as I see that more as a personal issue of yours and irrelevant to the issues here.

Aprodite I think you have 'cherry picked' one single MINOR cause knowing full well it will create argument.

Why am I not surprised you did not raise a subject that HAS been prominant in the past few years that of 'Farmer suicides' because of the continuing drought and the very large number of farm repossessions. I would suggest your pornography suicides would pale into insignificance compared with those. But why mention these? because they are normal people?


Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (look for the Avatars) Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Agog said
Aphrodite said
Yes Jon I did raise a significant and provable point and thank you for pointing that out. The causes of suicide are unknown.

And Jon I wasn't suggesting that some male suicides are child molesters, I was saying quite categorically that that was the case. Do you not read the newspapers? (and I am not referring to just those males that could be accused wrongly, I am referring to those that have been tried and convicted.)

Your attempt to hijack the original topic and turn it into your obvious gender issues, I will ignore as I see that more as a personal issue of yours and irrelevant to the issues here.
  Aprodite I think you have 'cherry picked' one single MINOR cause knowing full well it will create argument.

Why am I not surprised you did not raise a subject that HAS been prominant in the past few years that of 'Farmer suicides' because of the continuing drought and the very large number of farm repossessions. I would suggest your pornography suicides would pale into insignificance compared with those. But why mention these? because they are normal people?


  That's the spirit Agog!!! That is exactly what I was saying!!  That in the absence of cold hard facts that there is not just one reason for male suicides and if you look at the statistics you will identify that the statistics do not support the fault of divorce as has been spouted here so many times. I have mentioned previously the indigenous population as well as the very young males but obviously that did not rate any reaction and was overlooked. And now you have added a new one I did not think of, the poor farmers. Thank you.

It is a fact the indigenous population that appear to have one of the highest rates and the government has identified the young males as being particularly vulnerable which is great as hopefully some of that funding can be channelled into areas where it is needed. Maybe you should write to the government to lobby them to put some funds aside for the drought affected male farmers to provide emotional support. I think that would be very good of you.
Aphro,
 I suggest you look up case history - one in particular……BROWN and DUNN………. and hopefully you will get the message !:offtopic:

All I could find was Farr and Queue...does that have the same outcome?
Aphrodite said
 Maybe you should write to the government to lobby them to put some funds aside for the drought affected male farmers to provide emotional support. I think that would be very good of you.

He has plenty of spare time
I know he has been getting four hours sleep a night!
Perhaps this site should have a 'smart alec' award, if so I will nominate you.
Conan said
Aphrodite said
 Maybe you should write to the government to lobby them to put some funds aside for the drought affected male farmers to provide emotional support. I think that would be very good of you.
  He has plenty of spare time
I know he has been getting four hours sleep a night!
Perhaps this site should have a 'smart alec' award, if so I will nominate you.
 

Thank you Conan, I accept!

Agog should use his time to sleep instead of responding in the toilet.

I know Monaro is cut because I bettered him but as this is a "Family Site" and not "gender specific" then if I am to banned then he should too. See you on the outside Mon.
Aphrodite said
Agog should use his time to sleep instead of responding in the toilet.

Perhaps you should read Dale Carnegie's book?

Aphrodite said
I know Monaro is cut because I bettered him but as this is a "Family Site" and not "gender specific" then if I am to banned then he should too. See you on the outside Mon.

'Bettered' - is this a contest?

For your information Monaro posts in some of the SRL-R closed areas and his posts are welcomed because he at least attempts to provide useful information.

If there was a choice between someone that creates dissent and someone that attempts positive contribution - who would you choose?

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (look for the Avatars) Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Aphrodite, I am very disappointed in the manner you are choosing to participate in this particular thread.

You have been a valued and useful contributor elsewhere.

Men's health is a serious issue.

Men's suicide rate is a serious issue.

Focussing on a minor, statistical blip, such as one reported suicide and one attempted suicide, relating to child pornography, does nothing but muddy the waters. Is the inference you are drawing that the higher rate of male suicide is attributable to male, sexual dsyfunction - namely child pornography?

Higher rates of male suicide may NOT be attributable to family breakup. I highly doubt it, but it may not. I have personal, anecdotal evidence of this. But what is it attributable to? Exploring this in sensible debate would be welcome. You have chosen a very inflamatory way to express your disagreement. I do not think that is appropriate.

The one good thing that has come out of your rant is that I am now interested in pursuing Dr DeLeo and the White Wreath foundation for some comment and/or information. This is how to make a proactive and positive contribution.

Unfortunately, I do not think we will ever know the true cause until real research is done.

Anecdotally, the two suicides in my family were:
My grandfather in the depression when he could not feed his children; and
My cousin when his wife left him and he had no access to his children.

I am very offended on a very personal level.

I will never forget the moment when my partner recieved a response affidavit from his former partner. The VILE allegations were so HIDEOUS and UNFOUNDED, my man was in a flood of tears at reading them. In fact, he could not read the entire tissue of lies in one sitting.

So, seeing someone blithely toss around such allegations is not something I take lightly. Please consider what you say and some of the high emotions you may illicit on this site or I will reluctantly support your banning.

Junior Executive of SRL-Resources

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (Look for the Avatars). Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Aphrodite, I am very disappointed in the manner you are choosing to participate in this particular thread.

Artemis, then you should also direct that disappointment at other members of this forum as well.

You have been a valued and useful contributor elsewhere.

Thank you.

Men's health is a serious issue.

Exactly the point I have raised many times.

Men's suicide rate is a serious issue.

Exactly the point I have raised many times.


Focussing on a minor, statistical blip, such as one reported suicide and one attempted suicide, relating to child pornography, does nothing but muddy the waters. Is the inference you are drawing that the higher rate of male suicide is attributable to male, sexual dsyfunction - namely child pornography?

For one I did not focus on one minor statistical blip, I also brought up the statistics for the indigenous poulation as well as the incidence of young males. If you read back over my posts, how on earth can you ask me if I believe the higher rate is attributable to child pornography? I have said over and over again that the formal statistics do not supply a reason for the suicide and in fact do not support the stance here that is mainly divorce and separation that are causing the most suicides. There are no published studies proving or disproving this. I am sure there are many reasons and as stated the indigenous population are suffering as are the young men of Australia. Two other possible reasons for suicide are being caught with child pornography and the plight of the farmers in the drought as kindly pointed by Agog.

Higher rates of male suicide may NOT be attributable to family breakup. I highly doubt it, but it may not. I have personal, anecdotal evidence of this. But what is it attributable to? Exploring this in sensible debate would be welcome. You have chosen a very inflamatory way to express your disagreement. I do not think that is appropriate. I

 am sorry that you have personal anecadotal evidence of the family issues affecting a male but the fact is that it does not provide proof that the cry of the mens groups is factual.

The one good thing that has come out of your rant is that I am now interested in pursuing Dr DeLeo and the White Wreath foundation for some comment and/or information. This is how to make a proactive and positive contribution.

Good for you.

Unfortunately, I do not think we will ever know the true cause until real research is done.

I would be very careful of research results and would tread warily until the criteria had been established. I would personally like to see a more impartial body carrying out research rather than a group supported by mens groups.

Anecdotally, the two suicides in my family were:
My grandfather in the depression when he could not feed his children; and
My cousin when his wife left him and he had no access to his children.


I'm sorry for your loss and pain.

I am very offended on a very personal level.

Questioning statistics should not have offended you.

I will never forget the moment when my partner recieved a response affidavit from his former partner. The VILE allegations were so HIDEOUS and UNFOUNDED, my man was in a flood of tears at reading them. In fact, he could not read the entire tissue of lies in one sitting.

I don't understand your point here?

So, seeing someone blithely toss around such allegations is not something I take lightly. Please consider what you say and some of the high emotions you may illicit on this site or I will reluctantly support your banning.


I have not tossed around any allegations, show me where?

If you support my banning so be it.

Last edit: by Aphrodite

Prawda or nie Prawda?

I have been following this thread with more than a passing interest. I am not too sure where you are coming from, Aphrodite. Rather than get in to a slanging match, I will tell you what I hear around the traps of the legal system.

I am often in court with guys or dealing with cases over the phone for both sexes. Talking among the court counsellors, lawyers, barristers, doctors etc, the subject of men's health is always discussed. I am also very involved with politics, which means I get to talk to health (shadow) ministers, senior health officials etc, again the subject of men's health comes up.

What I hear from both avenues of information, is that men's health is a political hot potato, not given the resources it deserves and not so appealing to the media; "Men's health is not a sexy subject", to quote a reporter. The other problem for men, is their very different way of net working and seeking support. It does not work with the method of delivery that is used with females. In fact, the real reason for men committing suicide is their lack of a support network. It does not matter if it is family law related or if they are child abusers, the main cause will, in most cases, be lack of support.

Now if we put this in the context of a typical family law situation, we have a highly volatile mix. The lack of support is immediate and highly visible. No wife, no kids, no house, and soon no money.

Men then find that the system is not really geared for them (for historical reasons). They tend to loose friends, as the friends are normally the wife's friends.

 From my experience(legal) and talking to others, it would seem that the loss of the children is the next cause in a long line of causes. Take your pick depression, isolation, financial worries, kids, the ex, stress; what do you want on the death certificate? As long as it does not say family law reasons, it will be OK.

Suicide is a complex issue, there are many variables, many agendas and much confusion, but it can be said with a certainty that family break ups cause some men to commit suicide.



As to Artemis and her post about her partner's reaction to the affidavit served on him. Well it was a typical, for a head case, attack affidavit, that accused him of the nastiest things; without support it could of pushed some one over the edge. Making false accusation in family law is still a weapon of choice that men find hard to defeat; enough to drive you to suicide! I think this was the point she was making.

As for reading the papers and believing it - I would not bother, I work for them; it is agenda driven, with opinions counting more than hard facts.

Per ardua ad 'life'!



Monti

Last edit: by monteverdi


Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on the site (Look for the Avatars).   Be mindful what you post in the public areas. 
Indigenous issues are a very complex and separate matter that requires more than just siphoned funds from other areas it deserves to be addressed as a whole with dedicated funding for all issues involved.

This should not be attached to funding that answers less specific problems that would include indigenous males in it's support mechanism.

This may be looked at as " double dipping " for those who effectively use both areas of funding but both will need to deal with separate issues and will further assist all men.

I have already expressed these thoughts back when you raised them.

It seems you have raised selected contentious issues as back stops, yet you did not reply to the suggestion that the issue should be treated separate and with more care.

Most who have had false accusations of  molestation would be aware of how fickle the system is and how this allegation is used as a weapon of choice by some mothers who practice alienation. You have inter weaved molestation into your posts subtly to further engage conflict then choose to only respond to those posts that respond in conflict.

Your reflection to news papers who most know selectively interpret the news to increase financial gain, they are not good sources of information.

No one can state the statistical figure for men who commit suicide because of relationship breakdown nor can they specifically state that this is the only reason, but no one has. Some have referred to personal knowledge of why people they have known have committed suicide and accepted this may not be the complete reason.

If a " mens group " associates statistical information of suicide with some of the reason why men they communicate with feel suicidal they have grass roots level knowledge of a support mechanism they have established that can help.

If funding is being received that is gender orientated for a problem that is associated with a high death rate in one gender then percentile funding reflective should be given to the other gender that is reflected by head of population suffering similar issues.

the example being statistical cancer information shows 1 out 2 male and 1 out of 3 females contract cancer, hypothetically women get 1 mil on awareness publicity campaign then men get 1 and 1/2 mill spent on same topic.

If your only argument is that the major reason for male suicide is not from relationship break down and there for no funding should be given to mens groups you sorely miss the point of prevention but I can accept that argument and instead they should follow the much easier path of " you spend this much on women so we should get the same ".

I am sorry if this for you is personalized concerning someone close and no separation is not the only cause of male suicide but we need to reduce this high rate and if this means those who are considered " mens groups " fight tooth and nail to derive government funding to help prevent what is in their perception one of the biggest reason why they receive contact then grass roots level they should be given it.

I have known of five people commit suicide.
One female because of relationship issues and drugs.
One male teen just couldn't handle things.
Three men because of relationship breakdowns and being separated from their kids.

All before I was married.

If not for the help from a support mechanism I would be a statistic, I know this, I had the rope tied a tree picked, if I did not get through to someone my daughter would not have a father.

If not for three main male support mechanisms who helped me through the shadows I could not have got through, two of these people were associated with the DID's forum. And they know who they are.

I'm not sure you realize just how black black is.

Why negate help because the reason isn't good enough, this is real and a bit wider set than you think and those who run support groups are struggling just getting their name out there to say help is around.

I simply can not understand your argument accept on a technicality about the reason men commit suicide, and I have ask you what the problem is.

I personally do not want to see you band I want to know where your coming from and why your in pain.


monteverdi said
I have been following this thread with more than a passing interest. I am not too sure where you are coming from, Aphrodite. Rather than get in to a slanging match, I will tell you what I hear around the traps of the legal system.

I am often in court with guys or dealing with cases over the phone, both sexes. Talking among the court counsellors, lawyers, barristers, doctors etc, the subject of men's health is always discussed. I am also very involved with politics, which means I get to talk to health (shadow) ministers, senior health officials etc, again the subject of men's health comes up.

What I hear from both avenues of information is that men's health is a political hot potato, not given the resources it deserves and not so appealing to the media(I work for the SM). Men's health is not a sexy subject, to quote a reporter. The other problem for men is their very different way of net working and seeking support. It does not work with the method of delivery, used with females. In fact the real reason for men committing suicide is their lack of a support network. Is does not matter if it is family law related or if they are child abusers, the main cause will, in most cases, be lack of support.

Now if we put this in the context of a typical family law situation, we have a highly volatile mix. The lack of support is immediate and highly visible. No wife, no kids, no house, and soon no money.

Men then find that the system is not really geared for them(for historical reasons). They tend to loose friends, as the friends are normally the wife's friends.

 From my experience(legal) and talking to others, it would seem that the loss of the children is the next cause in a long line of causes. Take your pick depression, isolation, financial worries, kids, the ex, stress; what do you want on the death certificate? As long as it does not say family law reasons, it will be OK.

Suicide is a complex issue, there are many variables, many agendas and much confusion, but it can be said with a certainty that family break ups cause some men to commit suicide.

As to Artemis and her post about her partner's reaction to the affidavit served on him. Well it was a typical, for a head case, attack affidavit, that accused him of the nastiest things; with out support it could of pushed some one over the edge. Making false accusation in family law is still a weapon of choice, that men find hard to defeat; enough to drive you to suicide! I think this was the point she was making.

As for reading the papers and believing it - I would not bother, I work for them; it is agenda driven, with opinions counting more than hard facts.

Per ardua ad 'life'!

Monti
  Monti thank you for a thoughtful considered response but I do disagree with you on quite a lot of issues.

Without trying to be inflammatory let me say what they are:

You don't know what I do or who I am and I could very well be around the traps too. It can be dangerous to make assumptions.

I agree with you that Mens Health issues are a "hot potato" and I fully support any funding to provide support and help to those who need it. To do so, I think the crux of the problem is identifying who is most at risk and as the government eke's out the money who is the most deserving so to speak.

Generalising by saying women have their networks and so are ok is completely refuted by the fact (supported by research)that for every completed (not my choice of word)female suicide there are 35 attempts.

I disagree also with the generalised statement that child abusers commit suicide because of lack of support. Their opportunity to get support was long past and I think the shame and the fact that they get caught is the determining factor by I am just hypotheising here.

I am not saying that NO men commit suicide due to family issues, the statistics are not specific but if you examine the available data it does support the statement that 3,4 or even 5 male suicides are directly attributable to family law issues. There are many and varied reasons and the young, the old, indigenous, the homosexual, the drug addicted and even the child sex offenders. All of these reasons and more have been demonstrated as reasons for men taking their own life.

Your statement that the friends of a couple are usually the wife's friends is bizarre. Please show me the statistics where it says this anywhere?

I do not agree with making false accusations by any party particularly when it relates to children. I also acknowledge that this has become a habit of some women and is beyond my comprehension. These types of women give us all a bad name.

As to the validity of reading a fact in a newspaper then I will continue to do it. Irresponsible, emotive journalism is rife and I think I have enough intelligence to determine fact from a drummed up issue to sell newspapers.

Anyway, thanks for your response and I hope we can agree to disagree.

Emptrix Nata Sum

Added after D4E's post. Sorry D4E I will address your post shortly as I had already responded to Monteverdi.
Artemis said "I will never forget the moment when my partner recieved a response affidavit from his former partner. The VILE allegations were so HIDEOUS and UNFOUNDED, my man was in a flood of tears at reading them. In fact, he could not read the entire tissue of lies in one sitting"

Aphrodite said "I don't understand your point here"?

Well I am going to cherry pick your response. I think what Artemis said is totally obvious. It really upset him reading the tissue of lies and accusations, how far might that have gone if there had not been any support around?

I think that you will also find that D4E is not unique in selecting 'his' tree.



Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (look for the Avatars) Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Please tell me that you are not using the fact that Artemis's partner was falsely accused to attack me now?
I understand he was upset at being falsely accused but did not and still don't see the relevance to the issue.  (No offence Artemis and not meaning to lessen the obvious upset it must have caused).
I think you are wandering off the subject and sorry but I won't be going there no matter how much you wish to engage me. I already said I do not agree with that practice in any way shape or form.
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