Donate Child Support Calculator
Skip navigation

Rudd Government Men's Health Initiatives

The Rudd Government will develop Australia's first national men's health policy- recognising men have poorer health than women, are likely to die earlier and are at greater risk of suicide.

It is the first time I have raided the possibility of some male suicides being attributed to child pornography.
Why? Because I see the figures of 3 or 4 or even 5 male suicides for every woman being thrown carelessly around this site in support of the stress that only men experience in the event of a divorce or separation.
As NO reasons are given on the official statistics for suicides, you have to take into account various reasons. This is one and I am sure you are not suggesting that the current rate of only one suicide for someone caught accessing such a site is indicative of the real rate. The newspapers where I live have had many cases.
In the absence of any reasons given, you cannot take a blinkered view of why men commit suicide. To do so is irresponsible and probably ignoring the real reasons and denying those people the help they need.
Aphrodite said

Monaro being a "women" has nothing to do with it at all as I am just looking at the statistical evidence and not making broad sweeping assumptions that might support a cause.

With respect, on what basis can you make the statement that divorce and separation do not cause suicide in women? The statistics do not show any cause for any suicide male or female. I would say that both sexes come out of divorce feeling vulnerable but that is not the issue here.

The facts as presented and researched:

The Rudd government quotes a figure of 3 men to one woman suicide.

So by my reckoning if you deduct the indigenous suicides, the Victorian apprentices in the building industry, the very young and probably the very old, the male suicides attributed to be investigated for possessing child pornography and the fact the median age for males divorcing is currently 41 years old, I hazarding a guess that the rate for male and female suicide directly attributale <sic> to divorce or separation would roughly be the same.

From what I can gather the Griffiths University study is not complete at all and seeks to prove or disprove a theory. I would ask if Professor De Leo is married or divorced?

I do support the initiative though and if all men (divorced single or whatever) can benefit then that is a good thing, I just don't see it as an issue for Family Law.

Hello Aphrodite,
                    I disagree with your quoted statistic but before I go any further please let me acknowledge that women also go through these traumatic experiences. In fact I believe that separation from ones children can often be much more difficult for a woman. Society has a preconception that a mother should be a care provider in much the same way that society expects fathers to be household providers.

The reality of the point you are putting forth is that woman, as well as men, experience trauma that in some cases leads to suicide. I accept this is true without question.

Although the causes of individual suicides are not researched, it is well established that stressors are a causative link. The magnitude of different stressors is well established although past research.

From memory and in order they are -

The loss through death of a child.
The loss through death of a long term companion.
The loss through death of a sibling.
The loss of association with children.
The loss of association with a long term companion.
The loss of association of other family members.
The loss through death of a close friend.
The loss of association of close friends.
The need to relocate from the place considered home.

In difficult divorce cases a number of these stressors exist for at least one parent irrespective of their gender.

The topic of this discussion was men's health and this has led on to the issue of men's mental health or more specifically male suicide - post separation.

While acknowledging your point about the difficulties experienced by women, I would like to mention a number of differences that do relate generally to gender and have a strong influence on statistics.

Firstly there is the difference between suicidal behaviors and completed suicide. Females have a higher predisposition to suicidal behaviors where as males have a higher  predisposition towards completed suicide.

Dare I say it, in a number of cases suicidal behaviors in women are more an expression of help seeking behavior. None the less, all such behaviors should taken with equal seriousness and adequate support needs to be provided.

The government has been providing resources for youth suicide (under 25) for some time. Currently the higher bracket for males is around the same age as most men experience family breakdown.

As mentioned above, and with the exception of death, the greatest stressor is separation from ones children. I do not believe this even has any less impact on women however it is well known that in a far greater number of cases, it is the father that is separated from the children.

Some research has been completed in relation to the impact of separation on fathers and it is acknowledged, but not scientifically proven that statistically men are more prone to suicide. This is not a reflection of how males and females cope with these situations but rather a reflection on the ratio of males to females that are separated from their family.

If you spend some time looking into these matters, I expect you will be shocked to find that the figures that disbelieve are in fact very close to the truth.

As I mentioned, in these cases no gender is more deserving of support than the other. The statistics are simply a reflection of other aspects of our society.

Prostate cancer is now the most commonly diagnosed internal cancer in Australia, with more than 15,000 cases diagnosed each year. Prostate cancer is also the second leading cause of cancer death in Australian men, with almost 3,000 dying of prostate cancer in 2005. said
This was recognised in last month's Federal Budget, with the Government committing $15 million to set up two dedicated prostate cancer research centres. said
Australian men have the second highest rate of bowel cancer in the world, after New Zealand. Bowel cancer is the second most common cancer in Australian men, after prostate cancer. And yet, it is one of the most preventable cancers. The Government has responded by expanding the National Bowel Cancer Screening Program at a cost of $87.4 million over three years. said
 I would like to applogise to kevin, and congratulate him for the positive action he took for the above mentioned - a true step in the right direction.

thank you Mr RUDD!

Responsive Questions are and will always be a predetermine choice that reflect the questions ask in the manner they are ask. They are loosely put forward as statistical information but in fact are simply responsive information.

They serve the initiator to obtain a response that could well be bias. The initiator can further bias the result by using statistical information about a suburb or demographic to increase extended percentages.

I would suggest in realistic terms that males committing suicide attributed to viewing or attributing to pornographic material would be less than that attributed to mother who suicide is attributed to murdering their children.

Point being both these things have little to do with helping anybody but rather they are used for shock value to make a point.

Tonight on a news show they stated that statistics show one out of two men and one out of three women get diagnosed with cancer.

We see many adverts in regards to womens concerns of cancer and there are many forms of support.

Is it really too much to expect equality to exist and for the government to spend the same relative percentage of money to support men ???

If the only way to highlight this is to base statistical information to support the establishment of this equality.

The irresponsible part is to distract from the cause by flippant remarks about child pornography and those who have been caught viewing it could be .00001 % of males that suicide.

If you do not agree with the association that many suicides are contributed to the break up of relationships thats one thing but to lower the discussion by such statements thats something totally different as you have generally associated it with being a problem instead of a limited occurrence.

Sometimes the reasons are not as important as funding the help.

My information is not based on any statistical information or bound by any form of survey but I have corresponded with a few men who simply thought their choice was to end it all or walk away because they couldn't stand what was happening to them and their kids.

lets get back on track and address mens health issues not challenge the evidence but rather look at the reality.

  


monaro said
Prostate cancer is now the most commonly diagnosed internal cancer in Australia, with more than 15,000 cases diagnosed each year. Prostate cancer is also the second leading cause of cancer death in Australian men, with almost 3,000 dying of prostate cancer in 2005. said
This was recognised in last month's Federal Budget, with the Government committing $15 million to set up two dedicated prostate cancer research centres. said
Australian men have the second highest rate of bowel cancer in the world, after New Zealand. Bowel cancer is the second most common cancer in Australian men, after prostate cancer. And yet, it is one of the most preventable cancers. The Government has responded by expanding the National Bowel Cancer Screening Program at a cost of $87.4 million over three years. said
 I would like to applogise to kevin, and congratulate him for the positive action he took for the above mentioned - a true step in the right direction.

thank you Mr RUDD!
 
And I started this topic because I thought you chaps might be happy with the tiny step in the right direction that I noticed,

Thanks Monaro!



Aphrodite said
… The newspapers where I live have had many cases.
This is surely supposition. If there are newspaper reports like this please provide links so we can take a look at what sort of issues arise here. Can you list which cities / states these reports have appeared in as usually you do not see any real comments other than coming from the Coronial Enquiry. Surely these suicides under these sorts of circumstances you are speaking about would be backed up with a coronial enquiry and statistics as part of the formal suicide stats arising out of the combined stats in all states.

I previously asked Monaro to provide links to the source data he was using. I went to the link provided through Australian mens health Network
ERROR: A link was posted here (url) but it appears to be a broken link.
www.ozemail.com.au/~irgeo/ 
and got a lot of "page not found". I also went to http://www.menshealthaustralia.net/ which is the University of Western Sydney and I know the two key people running the programs. Neither of the sites have teh sort of data I was hoping to find.

The study from Griffith University looks like the one to wait for to get real stats.
Aphrodite said
… In the absence of any reasons given, you cannot take a blinkered view of why men commit suicide. To do so is irresponsible and probably ignoring the real reasons and denying those people the help they need.
I would like to see stats.. I think Monarao also made a very interesting post about this topic and that was ….since, divorce and seperation rarely increase women's risk of suicide at all. Why not? Because women are more likely to have custody and residency of the children - someone to love them and need them. Remember that people who feel loved and needed rarely commit suicide?

And women develop support systems. Women's traditional support systems support women being "vulnerable"; men's traditional support system support men being "invulnerable". This creates a paradox: the support men get to be invulnerable makes them vulnerable
.


Thanks for that Monaro.

The SPCA view on Suicide has been that we support enhancing and extending the Coronial Enquiry process. That is the authoritive and only way to determine a suicide. Without cases being dealt with by a formal Coronial enquiry they will not be determined as suicide so any assumption of categories that might or might not be suicide are simply conjecture and are not dealt with in the current system.

Executive Secretary - Shared Parenting Council of Australia
 Was my post helpful? If so, please let others know about the FamilyLawWebGuide whenever you see the opportunity
 
Secretary SPCA said
Aphrodite said
… The newspapers where I live have had many cases.
This is surely supposition. If there are newspaper reports like this please provide links so we can take a look at what sort of issues arise here. Can you list which cities / states these reports have appeared in as usually you do not see any real comments other than coming from the Coronial Enquiry. Surely these suicides under these sorts of circumstances you are speaking about would be backed up with a coronial enquiry and statistics as part of the formal suicide stats arising out of the combined stats in all states.

The study from Griffith University looks like the one to wait for to get real stats.
Aphrodite said
… In the absence of any reasons given, you cannot take a blinkered view of why men commit suicide. To do so is irresponsible and probably ignoring the real reasons and denying those people the help they need.
I would like to see stats.. I think Monarao also made a very interesting post about this topic and that was ….since, divorce and seperation rarely increase women's risk of suicide at all. Why not? Because women are more likely to have custody and residency of the children - someone to love them and need them. Remember that people who feel loved and needed rarely commit suicide?

And women develop support systems. Women's traditional support systems support women being "vulnerable"; men's traditional support system support men being "invulnerable". This creates a paradox: the support men get to be invulnerable makes them vulnerable
.


Thanks for that Monaro.

The SPCA view on Suicide has been that we support enhancing and extending the Coronial Enquiry process. That is the authoritive and only way to determine a suicide. Without cases being dealt with by a formal Coronial enquiry they will not be determined as suicide so any assumption of categories that might or might not be suicide are simply conjecture and are not dealt with in the current system.
 

Are you asking me to provide links to my local newspaper? If so take your pick from the following comments: no way Jose, As if!! You have got to be joking! Hell no! :P

Those newspaper reports, as do yours print such things as a person that was under investigation for either child molestation or other similar unsavoury behaviours has taken their own life. Then it usually ends with the phrase..The death is not treated as being suspicious. You know, you've seen the articles.

Am I correct in interpreting your comment to mean that I would not know the cause of a suicide unless it was reported in a Coronial Inquest? If so what are we all currently reading in the newspapers about Operation Centuron and the resulting suicides or suicide attempts by men currently under investigation. I don't recall an Inquest already for the cause or reasons for those incidents.

The facts are that there are no statistics that support the stance that Male Suicide is a direct result of Marriage breakdown or separation. You can't argue with that.
Aphrodite,
             Look at this page for some direction.

View topic: A Rebuttable Presumption of joint residency for children - Difficult? - flwg.com.au
NewMember said
Aphrodite,
             Look at this page for some direction.

http://www.familylawwe...ew&id=184&kfs20=0/
  That is an unsubstantiated recopy of a document from a group that benefits from a biased slant. If you go to the Australian Bureau of Statistics site, the statistics clearly do not agree.
Hello Aphrodite,
   I am reading the statistics right now. All it took was a couple of minutes with google so I really don't know what your on about!

You are asking us to supply information at your beck and whim while refusing to supply a simple link yourself.

We are here to work together. If it is confrontation you are looking for then perhaps you are in the wrong place.

The date of divorce is a recorded event in the history of many men that have suicided. The disparity of men who suicide in the first 6-18 months post divorce can be described as a causative link.

Queensland has some research that goes further.

Also see this link. For a more detailed study.

http://www.griffith.edu.au/school/psy/aisrap/marital-study.html

If you genuinely need information then googe it. It is out there.
NewMember welcome to the forum. I know that you haven't been here long but you will see that I am not looking for confrontation at all but do like to examine closely any information that is casually thrown around. The internet can be a very damaging place. I note that you like to post inflammatory comments like "refusing to supply a simple link" and "I don't know what you are on about". Perhaps it is you who desires conflict?

The ABS does not provide evidence of any cause of suicide and what have you have provided does not prove a cause of any suicide. The link you posted proves what?
Did you understand my previous posts?
Aphrodite said
NewMember welcome to the forum. I know that you haven't been here long but you will see that I am not looking for confrontation at all but do like to examine closely any information that is casually thrown around. The internet can be a very damaging place. I note that you like to post inflammatory comments like "refusing to supply a simple link" and "I don't know what you are on about". Perhaps it is you who desires conflict?

The ABS does not provide evidence of any cause of suicide and what have you have provided does not prove a cause of any suicide. The link you posted proves what?
Did you understand my previous posts?

 
The comment I made - "refusing to supply a simple link" - was a referring to the fact that you were asked for a link to news paper articles and refused to supply same. This was not intended in an inflammatory manner I don't understand why you believe it was.

The comment - "I don't know what you are on about" - I would like to change to - "I really don't have the slightest clue what you are on about" - no offense intended.

If I can google for ten or so minutes and find the information you say does not exist then I am at a loss as to why.

For google use the plus sign and quotes to make your search more accurate -

+"divorce" +"suicide"

Look for PDF's as web pages are commonly rubdish.

In the PDF's look for citations and then go back and google for the source document.

ABS is not the only source for stats - domains ending in .gov.au or edu.au are more reliable then other domains.

It is really that simple.


(Newmember -Thanks for the tip about the plus sign with google.)

As the starter of this topic, I think I should now try to close it.

It was intended to be a "good-news-step-in-the-right-direction" kind of topic, not a debate on the suicide or cancer statistics.

There are a couple of other topics devoted to those, but how about we end this one with a restatement of Monaro's post which totally trumps my opening post.


monaro said
Prostate cancer is now the most commonly diagnosed internal cancer in Australia, with more than 15,000 cases diagnosed each year. Prostate cancer is also the second leading cause of cancer death in Australian men, with almost 3,000 dying of prostate cancer in 2005. said
This was recognised in last month's Federal Budget, with the Government committing $15 million to set up two dedicated prostate cancer research centres. said
Australian men have the second highest rate of bowel cancer in the world, after New Zealand. Bowel cancer is the second most common cancer in Australian men, after prostate cancer. And yet, it is one of the most preventable cancers. The Government has responded by expanding the National Bowel Cancer Screening Program at a cost of $87.4 million over three years. said
 I would like to applogise to kevin, and congratulate him for the positive action he took for the above mentioned - a true step in the right direction.

thank you Mr RUDD!



Newmember with the sincerest of respect, you may have googled divorce and suicide (by the way I am a qualified researcher but I appreciate your basic tips) but the links you provided proved exactly what? You say you read the statistics, where exactly did it provide any reason whatsoever for the rate of male suicide?

Did you read the link you posted (which coincidentally has been posted in many places previously on this forum)? It is a link to a study currently underway by the Griffiths University which is looking at the impact of divorce and separation. I did not see any conclusions or data on that page. I find it interesting that that study is also supported by 4 specific mens groups that might directly benefit from specific findings.

Newmember please show me some qualified research from an independent body that can support the claims that the high rate of male suicide is directly attributale to divorce or separation.

Sorry Briar Rose I started my post before yours and didn't see it before posting.

I agree it is probably time to end this debate as it clearly is not progressing to anything useful.

I support the Rudd government initiative and suggest we all check our prostrates today.
1.1.   Australian and International research and studies into male suicide point to is a significant connection between male suicides and relationship breakdowns, including divorce and separation

1.2.   Some 42% of first marriages end in divorce. The AIFS indicates that in 1994 men were most likely to divorce between the ages of 30-49 years.

1.3.   Australian research indicates that divorce is rated as one of the most distressing life events for men and women.

1.4.   Children and mothers have traditionally been the focus of research on well-being after divorce, whereas only limited attention has been paid to the distress of fathers following divorce (Stone, 2001).

1.5.   According to Australian suicide researchers Dr Chris Cantor and Dr Pierre Baume, men are most vulnerable in the period immediately after separation.

1.6.   At the Men's Health Conference in 2001, it was suggested by the then assistant director of the Federal Men & Family Relationships' program, that one separated man commits suicide each day (Orkin 2001).

1.7.   Research by Cantor on suicides in QLD over 1990?2, shows that separated men are 6 times more likely to suicide than married men, and this was greatest in the age group up to 29 years. Separated males aged 30-54 are 12 times more likely to suicide than separated women. (Cantor & Slater 1995).

1.8.   The QLD Health Suicide Research Project is a study of some 2600 suicides in QLD for 1990-95. In a sub-group (n=294) that reported on relationship separation and length of time, 73% of suicides occurred within one month of the relationship change.

1.9.   A study of 4000 suicides by Griffith University found that 70% of adult male suicides were caused by relationship breakdowns. Research has also found that separated men have a suicide rate about 6.2 times that of married men, and about 12 times that of separated women.

1.10. Divorce multiplies men's suicide risk, making them nearly 9.7 times likelier than women to commit suicide even after controlling for other risk factors, according to a study by Augustine Kposowa, a University of California at Riverside sociologist 2003.

1.11. Relationship breakdown is a major trigger for male suicide, exacerbated by men's experiences with the family law system. This conclusion was supported by a study involving 15,000 Australians, released this week by the Australian Institute for Suicide Research and Prevention at Griffith University, which found relationship breakdown to be the main cause of suicide, with the male risk four times that of females.

1.12. Twice as many divorced men kill themselves, compared to single and married ones.

1.13. Recent research into male suicide in this age group revealed that males in the 'separation phase' of a marriage break-up were most at risk of suicide, compared with widowed or divorced males… Relationship breakdown is a significant characteristic of male suicide in the 24-39 age bracket. The anxiety and emotional pain of separation and divorce appear to effect men differently. LifeForce, Wesley Mission 2001

1.14. 'There is a concern that men are less likely to use mental health services,' Links says. 'Men don't reach out for help or don't feel existing services meet their specific needs. This might be a factor for the significantly higher number of male suicides compared to the number for women.'

1.15. The Federal Government is proposing to spend $2 million over the next three years on suicide prevention for men aged 25 to 44 - a pittance compared to the $31 million spent in the 1990s on youth suicide.
Aphrodite,

Before you start pointing out any deficiencies in the above, I would like to point out that I did not wright this. Also, I am not a researcher and I lack interest in validating this information for your benefit.

I am simply providing this as a starting point for you to research if you so choose.

If you want me to assist with research then a polite request will get you a long way. If you point out inaccuracies expect that I will respond with researched information in an adversarial manner than you are mistaken.

I will not engage in intellectual "sparing competitions" as have no need to prove my abilities to others.

I am however willing to assist others when this can done in a polite and constructive manner.
Newmember you seem a tad agitated.
You don't seem to understand that unvalidated and unqualified articles posted in support of your argument do not prove a thing.
I know that you did not "wright" the article but you seem to like producing it as evidence to support your argument..
Thank you for your offer of help but I will politely decline.
I know what you mean about not engaging in an intellectual "sparing competition".
Well, with due respect, we will call this "Subject closed".
Please someone pull the chain the toilets full already.

To associate statistical information that states pure figures of deaths by suicide and request that those deaths be determine with specific reasons is ludicrous.

I honestly do not know why this is being followed at this point in time it is a waist of time and space as well as the limited brainpower that is needed to follow the flimsy content.

If you want to know the reason find a way to reach the other side. How can you ask a dead person to provide statistical information as to why they committed suicide.

Good grief someone has spoken up in regards to equality for men and perhaps to try and reduce the male rate of suicide by an influx in funding comparative with that spent on women, and by the look of Monaro's post ( and others ) it is happening to some small amount.

In these portals and forums we work with the top high conflict percentage of those who are trying to find help be it emotional or legal, may can hold their hand up and say " I was this close to ending my life ".

Like I said prior statistical information is about as useful as a tourniquet to a snake bite, we've been told in the past how well it works only to die when it's released.

Keep your statistics and I'll carry on as many others do, trying to help people stop becoming one of your so useful statistics.

And before you ask yes I am agitated, once again it seems no matter what references are provided they are not good enough.

As far as the reference to Operation Centurion, of course there is an obvious link associated with this though the reason why they committed suicide may well be different. Pointing out of course that sometimes innocent people in the past have committed suicide due to the social pressure of being associated with such acts. Later to be proved innocent.

SO enjoy sitting there in judgment with out knowledge as to guilt status or victim status and make your associated references. I wonder if you will apologize if you are wrong with your statements I doubt it.
D4E said
Please someone pull the chain the toilets full already.

To associate statistical information that states pure figures of deaths by suicide and request that those deaths be determine with specific reasons is ludicrous.

I honestly do not know why this is being followed at this point in time it is a waist of time and space as well as the limited brainpower that is needed to follow the flimsy content.

If you want to know the reason find a way to reach the other side. How can you ask a dead person to provide statistical information as to why they committed suicide.

Good grief someone has spoken up in regards to equality for men and perhaps to try and reduce the male rate of suicide by an influx in funding comparative with that spent on women, and by the look of Monaro's post ( and others ) it is happening to some small amount.

In these portals and forums we work with the top high conflict percentage of those who are trying to find help be it emotional or legal, may can hold their hand up and say " I was this close to ending my life ".

Like I said prior statistical information is about as useful as a tourniquet to a snake bite, we've been told in the past how well it works only to die when it's released.

Keep your statistics and I'll carry on as many others do, trying to help people stop becoming one of your so useful statistics.

And before you ask yes I am agitated, once again it seems no matter what references are provided they are not good enough.

As far as the reference to Operation Centurion, of course there is an obvious link associated with this though the reason why they committed suicide may well be different. Pointing out of course that sometimes innocent people in the past have committed suicide due to the social pressure of being associated with such acts. Later to be proved innocent.

SO enjoy sitting there in judgment with out knowledge as to guilt status or victim status and make your associated references. I wonder if you will apologize if you are wrong with your statements I doubt it.

 

D4E come on in, the water is warm here in the toilet! Good to see some more flimsy content. I usually enjoy other things flimsy but this will do.:P

Now to the serious stuff. Let's see if I have this straight.

The mens groups publish the male to female ratio of suicides to promote their various cases and blame the separation of the man from the family. It's a good emotive argument. The official statistics do not provide any reasons for suicide, just numbers. It is also an argument put forward in order to gain government funding.

Said Mens Groups publically support a study into the reasons why.

A cursory look at the statistics prove they do not support the mens groups argument and in fact support that it is the very young and the indigenous that need help.

Supporters of mens groups claim that do not need statistics now as nobody can ask a deceased person why they did it and besides everybody knows that women don't suffer like men do in divorce and the men who suicide due to child molestation are only 1 or 2.

Is that correct?

With respect, you cannot have it both ways. If you want to hold something up as a representation of your cause then it must pass scrutiny.

If you want to rely on statistics, then you have to be able to back it up. I completely understand the Operation Centurion situation does not help mens causes at all and I completely understand you wanting to refute that. It's a nasty business all round.
Aphrodite said
If you want to rely on statistics, then you have to be able to back it up. I completely understand the Operation Centurion situation does not help mens causes at all and I completely understand you wanting to refute that. It's a nasty business all round.

This is the Family Law Web Guide, members here are not simply males or females. They are mothers and fathers.

Although we may have compassion for those who are subjected to a miscarriage of justice, we have absolutely no compassion whatsoever for people that engage in child sexual abuse or child pornography.

Operation Centurion helps all parents. I doubt you would find a parent that doesn't want their children protected from pedophiles. And if you did the I suggest that you are failing your social responsibilities by not reporting them.
1 guest and 0 members have just viewed this.

Recent Tweets