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Disciplining Children

Ex-FCA boss Alastair Nicholson continues his attack on men and fathers viz "wife-beaters" and "domestic violence" Nicholson then goes on to provide an insight into why he went on to abuse children (and their fathers) via the FCA

This thread flows from a previous Topic but adds some light hearted humour to days of old

I think that the concensus today is to blame everything on someone in the past, this way it will shift the blame from themselves to someone else.  

When I was growing up I was disciplined by my parents and boy did I deserve it.  Before I was punished for doing something I was always told not to do it before hand.  I new I had done something wrong and new that if I was caught I was going to be punished.  Same at School, I grew up when 6 cuts of the cane was the norm, and without fail every week I fronted to one of the department heads for some reason or another.  I deserved everything I got because I knew what I was doing was wrong and I do not blame anyone but myself.  

Admittedly there are parents out there that punish their children for the slightest thing which may be just a simple question like "why".  In my opinion that is a form of abuse and should be stopped.

I take full responsibility for what I have done in my life and can not blame anyone.  Everything I have done was my decision and mine alone.
I went through school when the cane was being phased ( after I finished that was ).

There were a few that went on to be local thugs and thief's due to many factors, some of them were of an a background that at this time were not able to be disciplined by the system appropriately so their behaviour became acceptable to them.

I am of a different position of the fact that sometimes I did not deserve the hidings I received and as the youngest my siblings would grab me at the sign of trouble and we fled for our own safety.

My siblings had children before me and I would say some habits stuck but not the belting's, there were smacks of course as was acceptable of the time and done so in the presence of company.

Point being all made a conscious effort not to exact on ours what was exacted on us. CHOICE and ACCEPTANCE.

I agree also that telling a child off because they should be totally under your control is abuse especially when it lacks consistency which is so often the case.

That MikeT bloke is obviously a danger to all, he was caned by the headmaster, had blackboard erasers thrown at him by teachers, had wood thrown at him by a teacher, was wrenched from his desk and thrown to the ground by a teacher, was hit over the head by the one of the heaviest books there is, was subjected to many chemistry lessons which started with whiffing aliphatic compounds and that's the list the old grey matter can still recall. :)

A term relatively new to myself, say over the last ten years, is "Selective hearing", I've now learnt a new term "Selective Perception" or should that rather be "Selective misperception"?
Mike I didn't know we went to the same school, do you remember how we use to get the Bunsen burners going  and how the teachers would brag about how many desks we use to bounce off before hitting the floor. ( well to be honest I didn't make it across the desks ) But most the teachers were apt shots with chalk, dusters and books while tech drawing teacher loved the chalk and T square and of course with woodwork and the lumps of off cut wood and the occasional wooden mallet or chisel back end first it would always hit, amazing really what skill.

Ahhhhhh the good old days, you knew where you stood then you just prayed you didn't get a note home.

Notes home

Yaeh notes home were a nightmare.

Do they still do notes home? Or has it gone by the wayside because notes have a 50% chance of resulting an irate parent punching the teacher or making an abuse allegation.

For me - Shared Parenting is a Reality - Maybe it can be for you too!
I think these days they prefer you to come in and address any problems, I did this with my daughters mother last year and it was an exercise that showed me I was doing the right thing but we both had to be there. This made no difference if someone is lazy they will not commit and use any excuse and more than likely blame the system. This makes it hard for the system and the parent who realises the importance of education.  
In my experience it is not the controlled application of the cain or strap that produces bullies, wife beaters or the like (Ex Justice Nicholson). It is the retaliation slap, hit, and thumping, usually by the mother but also by fathers that create wife beaters and bullies.

Look around you, who is the bully at school it is the child that lacks attention other than a wack from their mother (both girls and boys) or thumping from the father.

It is the child that is repressed in their gaining of approval by both or either parent and when that child is forced to rely on a mother only who retaliates with slaps, hits, or thumping's what is that child to do but become angry and take it out on the authority around them by disobedience to the required behaviour.

In Vic we had a child throw a party that became Internationally know. A girlfriend could not believe it when she found I was right when I said that it is probable the child lived with a stepfather and mother who gave the child what he wanted with no consideration for the implications of what that child would do if give the responsibility of freedom.

What happened he screamed for help, but was rewarded for his dysfunctional behaviour by Channel 9 by their advertising his dysfunctional un-acceptable behaviour!

It is common for children in mothers care to be dysfunctional by expectation of wants over needs and what is within mothers financial means. Fathers try and install limits on children but when mothers said it is easier to give the child what they want how can respect and responsibility be learnt by the child, the child lives with the mother and only has contact (new words are to wordy and mean the same) with the father hence play the good child with the father and do as they want with the mother 2 days out of 14 is nothing to a child. Not to say this happens all the time Agog but it is increasingly so as is the divorce rate now almost 1 in 2.

Government have said they want to know why child dysfunctional behaviour regarding the Law is increasing (or that is who I read what they have asked). I would answer with turn to the FamCA denial of proper or reduced father contact and the claim that the strap is not a proper form of punishment.

The fear of the application of strap or cain stopped more dysfunctional behaviour in my friends and my teens than anything else. An example being blowing up a toilet bock only got us suspended so we got a holiday from school and went bush bashing on our horses and bikes, what a joke.  

Yes I have done my share of naughties and got a sore b for them but learnt and remembered the wrong not the punishment other than it was probably the sore bh.

My daughter reminds me of how much more memorabile it was for her to show and tell (pants down) when I stood her against a prickly (plastered) wall while I talked to her brother and his girlfriend at 7 and 9 yrs old, my daughter was 5 and had seen her mother in bed with another man. The prickly wall stayed in her mind not anything else.  

As Dr Green of Sydney Uni says, a smack at the right time in the right way is proper and best, (my understanding) it is the hit of any type in retaliation rather than a calculated application of punishment that is wrong and destructive to the child's social acceptability of physical behaviour.

In short bring back that strap with the count of 50 before application, it is the hit of any type in retaliation that is wrong not the application of discipline.

I must admit with saying what I have I still prefer "Stand and Think Time" in public view over the hit.
No-Justice in relation to your rather sore bh in your tender years.
I was speaking to a collegue today who was talking about an ABC TV presentation last week on "Hitting Children" and apparently it is okay for discipline reasons if not on the head. I wondered about this because I have two AVO mattters in process. One is a child (between 9 and 11) alleging he was held (restrained) by the wrists by dad because he was having a tantrum and throwing a ball at a rental property wall with an intention to break the wall. Here is a case that there was no "hitting". I wonder how many new AVO proceedings we could expect from any hitting?     

Executive Secretary - Shared Parenting Council of Australia
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I agree with what I see as your point, but the Law on assault, which is what I see you talking about, is an unlawful application of any force including gaseous (verbal). NSW does make a hit in the head area UNlawful and so such would be an offence as I see it, that would include a slap on the face.

I agree with this law as a slap on the face for other than medical reasons of bring a person out of an uncontrolled dysfunctional tantrum that amounted to a personal physical attack on somebody (hence self-defence) within acceptable force limits of not leaving a bruise.

It being a "rental property" is irrelevant, did the child express an intent to break the wall or was that an interpretation of the behaviour?

Did the ball have a potential to break the wall i.e. was it made of steel or the like?

Damage to private property is an offence and a Good Samaritan is granted immunity under most Criminal and/or Crimes Acts if the action of the Good Samaritan was of minimal force, the term is usually "Reasonable Force" thereby open to debate. What you have said was to me not discipline but an application of parental direction to protect private property and parental responsibility to install into a child respect for others belongings.

Restraint of a destruction of the child's own belongings even if supplied by the parent would to me be another issue requiring "Stand and Think Time" after the fact for a full realisation of the personal loss and inappropriate behaviour.

SPCA said "I wonder how many new AVO proceedings we could expect from any hitting?"

I think I have given my view on that above, none depending on if the hitting was a reaction to the event or application of punishment hence my words of count to 50 not count to 10, that I did not include prior.

The thing that neither has mentioned to this point is consistency one of the other major travesties when disciplining a child.

Weather punishment is stand alone time or corporal punishment has little benefit unless there is consistency in it's letting.

I realized that it may have been automatically assumed that consistency  is a given in many cases we find as suggested by NJ mum gives everything child wants including not being consistent with rules and punishments until it effects their world then all H ell breaks lose and the child finally gets attention for their actions.

Property and things are not the issue but rather social behaviour so again I agree with NJ.

As far as hitting in the head well this ones surely simple common sense as a childs brain not yet developed and their skull still thinner the risks of concussion is great although perhaps not visually obvious, but as it is an effective target that can be hit with little effort I guess we go back to lazy parenting and monkey see monkey do.

As anything used as a deterant the semi-innocent and innocent get caught up in it, how many innocent people have spent years in jail for crimes they did not commit or evidence was nothing more than created to fit the situation.

As suggested excessive force may not be hitting the use of pressure point and bending till a bone fractures or just before can be devastating for a child as far as pain goes.

When I was a teenager the cane was phased out in England where I went to school but not Scotland. In England we had riots in the classrooms, teachers had no control and the ratbag kids ruled the roost making it hard to learn anything - many a time I saw teachers in tears and on the verge of a breakdown.
I then went to school in Scotland - the difference was remarkable, kids sat still at their desks, paid attention and didn't backchat. One day a kid made a remark I thought a bit smart but nothing compared to what happened in England, he got sent out of the room, which surprised me. The teacher followed him with a wooden paddle. The class stayed still and silent - I was gobsmacked, in England had the teacher left there would have been a free for all the minute the door closed. Teacher and child came back in (we were 15 yrs old I might add). Kid sniffling sat down, teacher resumed teaching and I realised to my total shock he had been caned.

To me that was a far better approach than throwing rulers, chalk, dusters, tantrums etc that we experienced in England. The classes were orderly, we knew what was expected and what would happen if we didn't follow the rules.

At home, like D4E says, it is consistency that is required, and that is hard work, too hard for a lot of parents that just go for the slaps, shouting and adult temper tantrums to make kids behave.

When you are swimming down a creek and an eel bites your cheek, that's a Moray.
Mental abuse is what many men are accused of - mental torture etc.

One of the problems is that when you are six feet tall and solid - people are naturally afraid of you - hence you are potentially abusing them just be being there or speaking loudly.

I use the strength of my voice and attitude when disciplining my children - it's not a threat of violence - it is an indicator of seriousness / take note.

 Maybe I am not explaining myself well enough

Discplining Children

This topic revolves round disciplining children and was originally created to report on the rather distorted and biased views of the former Chief Justice.

The methods of disciplining children are an important and ongoing subject in many of the Forums and topics on this site. With this in mind a sub forum 'Disciplining Children' in the 'Health and Well Being' Forums 'Separated Parents (Children's Health and Development Issues)' will be created this evening.

Posts on this issue will be 'moved' into that new area

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (look for the Avatars) Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Good idea as a lot of seperated parents struggle with discipline. Parents that have left discipline up to the other parent, been undermined and never established a discipline "procedure" or simply have to deal with an ex who blocks or undermines any form of discipline with accusations of abuse will benefit from the experiences and knowledge of others.

When you are swimming down a creek and an eel bites your cheek, that's a Moray.
I reckon one of the worse forms of disciplining is through guilt.

One night my X came home after a few days away with a sick relative and kids being kids were all over the shop, you know how they get wanting to speak first to their mum and stirring each other up jumping in on conversations, so once again being the sound of reason I ask for quiet and told one to go first as she was talking the other finished her sentence and it was on.

Then mum started " I don't know why I bothered coming back none of you appreciate me, do you know how hard it is sitting in a room of dying people watching death ".

All the kids started crying even my 2 year old ( at the time ) they were nearly chocking on their food right up to the 15 year old.

I did respond and told my X to apologize and telling her that this is a topic for adults not to make the kids feel guilty.

Her response was not to talk to anyone the rest of the night and flash filthy looks at everyone.

Not much has changed and how many more go through this daily so yeah Jazdia I know I could use some good advice at times.
I think that is the old school Motherly form of controlling a family - through forcing guilt trips onto the kids. My mother used it, and I notice a lot of older generations are also into it. Then you see comedies like The Nanny, Everyone Loves Raymond etc where it is an artform.  Funny on TV but in reality IS a form of abuse (not just child but spousal too).

At the very least a forum on discipline and changes to families after seperation is going to have practical applications, as well as legal implications too. By that I mean if someone is trying to do their best to create a stable home for children they need to learn how to discipline in ways that work, improve the childs lot AND impress the legal system, not provide fodder for a hostile Ex.

When you are swimming down a creek and an eel bites your cheek, that's a Moray.
So true I'm of the belief that many parents make their childrens life better than their childhood but are still abusive in their own right just not as abusive. It's the same snake but looks a little different.

Discussing techniques of not only how we parent but things that will help our children cope on the other side at this point is a necessity not many parents think of.

Perhaps a forced parenting course as part of the family law process is not a bad idea for those who want to be serious about parenting but for those who do not want to change what do you do?
The forced parenting course is now a part of the family relationship centre mediations. It is, I believe, voluntary, but can be forced by a magistrate upon both parents in a dispute.

Of course you are going to get those who go just to satisfy the courts, and hopefully they will learn and benefit from them. But for those who don't want to and will not change then the courts are now prepared to place fines and custodial sentences.

I think part of those courses could be a segment on how to deal with a difficult ex as any improvements there flow onto the kids, and also a segment on how to help your kids deal with the situation also.

Unfortunatly we are relying on the legal system to mete out punishment for not doing the right thing by our kids and I think the FRC need an area where they are able to deal with the parent who hurts the children with their hostility to a certain degree before involving the courts. This in itself opens up potential for abuse too and would need to be carefully monitored.  Maybe if there were incentives to parents to "behave" it would work better.

When you are swimming down a creek and an eel bites your cheek, that's a Moray.
This would require recognizing things that are considered acceptable behaviour be changes to abusive behaviour this may cause situations to be driven underground and defended, this is one of the situation I feel would suffer the full brunt of extremist feminists to protect their sisters and using accusations to discredit men and fathers.

My reasoning for this is that they would see it as a direct threat to womens rights and not an image they want to expose, violent abusive women.

I feel that most the dad will be willing to participate and use the tools and a good percentage of women will be of the same ilk but that minority that needs to be educated on the womens side will align with groups that can provide tools to defer this happening if it involves punishments to change them.

Perhaps keeping them in the course a little longer or simply involve the CSA and brainwash them, probably save time and money.
Im going through the teenage stage with my three boys.  The first 3 months was a nightmare, no matter what I said they didnt care.  My head would be throbbing through worry of their safety when they decided they would go out with friends and return whenever.

I decided I wasn't playing the game and am now doing a lot more for myself.  Now they tell everyone I dont care about them or love them cause I'm not chasing their backsides around town.  What do you do?  Chain them to there beds?

If that was me, at there age, my dad would boot my backside so hard, as he did once, and he had steelcaps on everytime.

They woke up one day and thought, "I don't have to listen to mum; I can do whatever I want".

So as heartbreaking as it was for me, I let them go.  I remind them as they leave (hissing and cursing) that "I've taught you right from wrong all your lives; whatever you do, whether it be right or wrong, is your choice, and you will suffer the consequences of your bad choices".  It would be quicker to throttle them…
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