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Topic #2141 (no title)

Hi Monster, no need to babble and make a long order, attending a post separation course for both parties in the Family Court is quiet common. I had it in my intrem orders. It just said "both parties to attend the Mum's and Dad's forever program" - that simple, one line. Or you may put "both parties to attend a post separation course as soon as possible". They are really good. May I suggest that you attend one asap, you don't need to be ordered to attend. You will learn a lot. You may put a time line in your order regarding the course, something like 'within 6 months'. Sometimes there is a bit of a wait to get in.

Just to add, you can phone Legal Aid on their free advice line in your State, and ask them which course is recognised by the Court, then add  that 'place' in your order.

Last edit: by Bec B

Monster, if you could please use capitals and better grammar please, your post is hard to read. Take your time reading what you are writing as this message doesn't make much sense, I get what you are trying to say, I think. No offense intended to you personally, but please respect the other posters by writing properly.

Remember the old saying, 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink'. - Same things go with these courses, just because you do the course, doesn't mean you will take it on board.

Am I guessing this is a recent separation for you ?? Maybe some counseling for you may help the way all this is affecting you, you need to learn to disengage, rise above all the rubbish - we are in control of our own feelings eg. Some one doing something intentionally to hurt us, you need to rise above, not let it hurt, it takes a while to learn. Going through this FC stuff is very stressful. A counselor may be able to suggest some good coping skills for you.xx I think someone else suggested maybe you might join another forum like DIDS to communicate about the emotional stuff. You may get some good advice there. oh, also maybe try The StepFamily Zone, that forums pretty good too.

bugger - I'm having a major problem with this site, I keep getting a blank page saying Php has encounted an access violation at 011A8CCI !!!!!!

Last edit: by Bec B

There are many such orders written into judgements. Recitals exist that can be drawn from. Any party is entitled to draw upon any part of existing judgements.
A definitive, rather than a nebulous "maybe", "or" approach is suggested. The functionality of orders is what the court attends to. There is a preference for parties to provide orders they can live by.
Compulsion can not be enforced by the court other than in contempt cases. So that which is volountarily agreed to has promise.

Counselling is often in the context of a report for proceedings. A recccommendation for the treatment of a child has been observed as possible. The treatment of an adult has no legs unless agreed to by that person.

Courses exist that parents can enter into even without court orders. They would be in accordance with specific requirements. A party before the court who has attended parenting courses could see approval from the bench in a discretionary way.

Relationships between people, especially parents, are an investment which are not always properly preserved. In the interests of children they can be less emotionless and simply functional. Expecting others to reconstruct a relationship between others is not as effective as the parties accepting that their interests are less important than perceived.

What is done for you, let it be done, what you must do, be sure you do it, as the wise person does today that what the fool will do in three days - Buddha

Two-headed monsters and simple orders

BecB the problem you are having with monster's post is that we have a two-headed monster. Sometimes the father of the child posts, and other times the father's current partner posts. Neither bother too much with grammar or basic English expression. It is very hard to help them when they do this. Good on you for having a stab at trying to help. While I shouldn't speak for all moderators, I have scaled down my help only to when I can actually read monster's post.


monster said
In order to facilitate a more workable relationship that the parents attend at a counsellor or recommend family service practice until they are discharged.  For the purpose of these orders the counselling should undertake to address; building acceptable communication, reducing conflict in the parent's relationship

I have explained to you previously that you cannot draft orders that place a judgement on the other party. You cannot draft orders that in effect say "we need to do xyz because you are a difficult cow".

Orders such as:

The parents are to negoitiate xyz, failing to reach an outcome by xyz.

Should no agreement be reached on the issues referred to in Order x, the mother and the father will make an appointment for attendance upon a suitable mediation service to resolve issues prior to abc.  

Each party has liberty to apply on seven days noice after abc should no agreement be reached on issues contained in order x.

Junior Executive of SRL-Resources

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (Look for the Avatars). Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Judging from the exchange 'monster' had with this poster the message has still not got through.

http://flwg.com.au/forum/index.php?page=topicview&id=2193&kfs4=0

'monster' would do well to carefully read posts before responding to them.



 Senior Site Moderator and Administrator
One of the most difficult thing with adversarial is simply that.

They is conflict between the parties, the courts are basically interested in keeping the child's interests intact. They can suggest or in some cases order that the parents receive forms of parenting course or counseling to improve their parenting skills but they have their limitations.

Some parents will remain in conflict their whole lives trying to get one up on the other using their children as supporters and messengers.

The issue then becomes " Will counseling make a difference ? " and in many adversarial situations it won't.

There are other factors such as unwillingness to attend even if ordered and what overall effect it has on the kids.

Simply put it can be argued that as long as the needs of the child are met and their is no malignant alignment problems that limited communication can work.

In this situation as Artemis has suggested, any major problems go to mediation and the third party mediation system is used.

There are of course a variation of strategies that can be used and implemented to reduce conflict but they are usually used by the parent who seizes the opportunity to concentrate on the child and realize to reduce conflict they have to make a major effort.

This does not mean you have to like the person but just be willing to sacrifice.

A lot of what we have to deal with intermingles between emotional, logical, moral and legal. The first three are like water and oil when it comes to legal. They don't mix at all but they are always on the surface and what we view as logical and moral may not be the courts idea of logical or moral.

Always to remember to ask yourself " does this have legal definition "  
monster said
I was saying that the parties should undergo family therapy that should give the parents skillls in specific areas and the areas were abc and seek to improve their relationship with the help of a trained professional. Having the parents actually work on their relationship, develop trust in each other and develop and reduce exposure to parental conflict could only really be done in a safe therapeutic environment when the parents have been in the kind of ongoing conflict you get in court cases. Are you sure you cannot ask for parties to attend at counselling or at private practice. It seems like a strategic and practical way to get "attitude" issues resolved.

Monster, if all you want is the above, then the orders requested should state:

"The parties are to undergo individual or joint (you need to specify) family therapy"

You don't need to specify why as that places a judgement on the other party.

I believe what you would get is an order to attend courses. "Family therapy" is a fairly nebulous term and is a process that could go on for years. Orders need to be fairly specific.

You also said

 
No courses!!! That has allready been ordered and done with no sucess for the person it was intended to reach. I dont see a parenting course as helpful order if it doesnt address a set problems that are really happening,and there is no undertaking by either party to actually improve the situation.

In order to facilitate a more workable relationship that the parents attend at a counsellor or recommend family service practice until they are discharged.  For the purpose of these orders the counselling should undertake to address; building acceptable communication, reducing conflict in the parent's relationship

The best ways to avoid conflict with someone with entrenched attitudes are to improve your own communication skills and the be assertive (not aggressive, not passive).

Junior Executive of SRL-Resources

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (Look for the Avatars). Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
Our FRC has a "Parenting Orders Program". The parties are ordered to attend the FRC either during the case or upon final Orders to participate in whatever programs the Co-ordinator deems appropriate. This can include child consultations, anger management, personal counselling/therapy, mediation …the whole deal. That centre is Lismore NSW. Every parent I have spoken to who has participated has found it beneficial.
You should enquire at your FRC to see if they have a Parenting Orders Program.
My perspective is it depends on the situation.

In topics when you see the distinction of a badge it means they have experience that is wise and needs to be considered. I'm happy to bow before their knowledge.( sideline )

There is no way of giving a specific answer unless you are privy to both sides of the evidence and can make an adjudicated decision.

When thing started for me it was very adversarial, although in many ways it was one sided I was determine to keep trying to communicate, mediate and establish good boundaries for my daughter.

I addressed all the issues including offering counseling as a family or as individuals and all the rest of the progressive parenting things that are about, all were refused.

I kept the same strategy of negotiating and trying to mediate and talk about issues and all else to no avail, all where refused and most fault was put on me.

I kept going and going, along the way I dealt with alignment issues as well as just about everything else.

If I had tried to bring into the court orders that counseling was required as a family unit it would have further entrenched things and crated a greater rift.

Would this have worked for me NO, plain and simple.

I parallel parent because of this and the lack of motivation on her mothers part to set boundaries and rules combined with her inability to co-parent.

Many times I could have gone for the throat and caused great pain to my X and all her family and sunder but instead I allowed the little things that I could not alter to slip by and concentrated on the big things.

My daughter is now 50/50 and loving it, she loves her mothers boyfriend which I have told her that I support that love but don't ask me to be friends with him, she understands my boundaries and I respect hers, she's six.

It's what efforts we make that make the difference and this is why you have to separate emotions, morals and reduce conflict.
Because of this in my opinion without this change counseling with one party enthused and another entrenched it will make little difference in most situations, although will help in a few.

T12's post came in as I was replying and as he rightly states all who are willing to attend have found it beneficial.

This benefit may have well extended to my situation if this order had not been ignored and excused by my X, I was not required to attend and she simply did not bother.

I still believe my statement correct when adversarialy entrenched.

Think about the advantages and disadvantages and if the advantages win then include this in your orders.

Parent support programs?

Is there a list of ALL the various parenting support programs that one can refer to when considering what orders might be sought?

Awareness of these services and their associated purposes is important.

A party appearing before a judge who seeks as to whether that party has attended such courses will seemingly get a nod of approval if judge's body language is discretioned.

What is done for you, let it be done, what you must do, be sure you do it, as the wise person does today that what the fool will do in three days - Buddha
I think T12s suggestion is a sound one. Unfortunately, I don't think this approach is offered at all FRCs.

I think you will find its a state by state approach. The names of the courses often change as well, depending on the provider.

I know Relationships Australia chop and change their course names quite frequently.

Junior Executive of SRL-Resources

Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on this site (Look for the Avatars). Be mindful what you post in public areas. 
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