Warning: file_put_contents(): Only 0 of 95 bytes written, possibly out of free disk space in /home/flfl1154/git/flwg.com.au/sources/global.php on line 625

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home/flfl1154/git/flwg.com.au/sources/global.php:625) in /home/flfl1154/git/flwg.com.au/sources/static_cache.php on line 230
View topic: Government creating a fatherless society" - On Line Opinion 15/3/2012 - please comment – Family Law Web Guide
Donate Child Support Calculator
Skip navigation

Government creating a fatherless society" - On Line Opinion 15/3/2012 - please comment

Craigo said
  
"Female doctors have a working life that approximates 60% that of male doctors. Significant amounts of time are consumed by family demands, and a desire to work sensible (and regular) hours on their return to the workforce."

It's understandable that men aren't prepared to work harder and longer than female colleagues who are paid the same.

 

Where in the article you mentioned does it say that the female doctors are paid the same as the male doctors for less hours worked?

The way I read it, the female doctors are working less hours because of family demands.  Stands to reason they also get paid less.

   
April said
Craigo said
  
"Female doctors have a working life that approximates 60% that of male doctors. Significant amounts of time are consumed by family demands, and a desire to work sensible (and regular) hours on their return to the workforce."

It's understandable that men aren't prepared to work harder and longer than female colleagues who are paid the same.

 

Where in the article you mentioned does it say that the female doctors are paid the same as the male doctors for less hours worked?

The way I read it, the female doctors are working less hours because of family demands.  Stands to reason they also get paid less.


 
I can't see the point of questions being directed at me and not the general topic…

Perhaps you should address your queries to the Medical Journal of Australia.
Very funny.

No need to address the MJA, they have written the article clearly.  Craigo has misrepresented what was written to make it sound like female doctors get the same pay for less work than male doctors.  That is wrong.  The article does not say that.





April said
Very funny.

No need to address the MJA, they have written the article clearly.  Craigo has misrepresented what was written to make it sound like female doctors get the same pay for less work than male doctors.  That is wrong.  The article does not say that.






 
Actually, Craigo has quoted the entire relevant paragraph. The point was made very clearly: women choose not to work as hard after they have children so, unsurprisingly, men in the same roles choose not to work as hard either, since they gain no additional benefit by doing so. This has affected the work culture to the detriment of the community.

The MJA article was specifically and quite clearly about the issue of insufficient medical practitioners and the causative factors, of which demographic changes were one.

You can believe in your feminist cargo cult all you like, but unless somebody actually works hard for the money to pay for the handouts they won't deliver anything more than wishful thinking and bludgers, as drhuge points out.
No, the article says female doctors are making their family commitments a priority and working around them when they return to work.  What's wrong with that?  No mention of a handout at all.  (I would question why male doctors aren't making a priority of family demands).

It also says that male doctors are refusing to work the ridiculous hours that doctors were made to work 20 years ago (in the good old days where junior doctors worked shifts that were so long it was detrimental to doctors' health and patient care).

Craigo, you and srldad101 deserve some type of award for the way you guys can twist anything to be about feminism.  Sorry guys, feminism already happened.  This is the world of equal opportunity/status, where a doctor can determine the hours they work and it not be a gender issue.  What on earth is wrong with that?  Not everyone wants a hand out guys.

Stop letting your negative experiences wreck your lives.
I will make a quick point. Medical student intake is restricted (protected) by quotas. It takes 6 years of medical study & internship to train a doctor at a cost to taxpayers of say $100K. If female students with higher VCE scores are dominating the intake and then refuse to work more than part-time (15hrs/week) for family reasons it causes a tremendous shortfall in available treatment hours in a clinic. The remaining full time male doctors cannot make it up. A consulting room remains vacant for most of the week.

Further the replacement pipeline of doctors is also made up of future part-timers. Patient access to doctors decreases. They invent super-clinics run by nurses.

A male doctor explained this to me after I had to wait 3 hours for an appointment.

And to help recovery of our wrecked lives here is Larry Pickering's take on Gillard's propensity to seemingly enjoy shafting males that get in her way, wilkie, rudd, shared parenting, gender laws…  probably includes that g*y hairdresser she is shacked up with.

From Canada aussie pm in denial as her support amongst males drop to all time low

By the time Gillard is driven out, positive discrimination and Emily's List will finally be buried as disastrously unusable concepts and feminist extremism will go the way of fax machines, typewriters, & Post office telegrams. Outdated, irrelevant, and useless in today's society.

Oh that cartoon. Brainwipe, please
April said
No, the article says female doctors are making their family commitments a priority and working around them when they return to work.  What's wrong with that?  No mention of a handout at all.  (I would question why male doctors aren't making a priority of family demands).
It's a problem because the entry of female students into medical school, at the expense of male ones, yields only a 60% return compared to those male ones. This creates a shortage.

I would question why the females are being accepted if it is known they will not be committed to the important job of looking after the sick, as male doctors always have been.

On the subject of families, you have highlighted why they exist: it's so one partner can work while the other one looks after the kids. It's about a sensible division of labour. Working to support the family IS a commitment that men take seriously, it's not an optional extra that they do while they're feeling a bit bored or before they feel like having kids.

April said
It also says that male doctors are refusing to work the ridiculous hours that doctors were made to work 20 years ago (in the good old days where junior doctors worked shifts that were so long it was detrimental to doctors' health and patient care).
The reason male doctors worked those hours and still do is because there is a shortage of doctors. As the article points out, training female doctors instead of male ones simply adds to the shortfall. I guess you wouldn't have noticed, since women's health is funded by our feminist Governments to the exclusion of men, while "women only" GP clinics are becoming common.

As always in a feminist world, it's about pretending that women are "just as good as men" and ignoring anything that doesn't suit.

Pure fantasy.
In relation to males females in demanding high paid positions, there have been survey's done which showed the reason the majority of women work less and chose not to advance their careers and possibly earn more is choice.

Overwhelmingly the majority of women surveyed said they resented the intrusion that many jobs had into their 'non working time & lives' that the majority of well paid, higher responsibility, positions do require. This applies to single women as well as those with families.

The men in the survey that got ahead and earned more all worked 14 + hours a day and often had to take their work home with them and work week ends. They did this because they believe the more money they earn the better the provider they are, and the better of their families would be. It is something that men seem to take great pride in, so they go the extra mile.

I could earn 3 times what I earn as OHS adviser, I've been offered jobs in mines rescue but refuse to take it. The money would be great but life's to short to devote it to job which would require me to work a 14- 16 hour day. I've got other interests and things I am not prepared to give up for the money. My other interests are not 'child' related.

My OH, on the other hand works 4 days a week, 24/7 on call and mentally thrives on it. I don't reckon it does his heath any good, I reckon he'll have a heart attack form the stress and lack of sleep, eventually, but anyway it's his 'thing' and he has a nasty ex and legal bills he has to pay.

We have 10 jobs going here on one farm, all bar 2 of the 78 applicants are men. We have a large number of males/ females unemployed in the area. It's physical work, for a minimum wage but the unemployed women turn their nose up at, despite the fact there are industry incentives and special consideration given to them. Men are more likely to grab any work they can to feed and cloth their families.

If you listen to feminist activists versions, they complain women's working status doesn't match up to men's. What they are not factoring is the choices, even single women are making because they can.

If we do have more and more women dominating university courses, who go on to choose to not work full time, over time ect (for what ever reason), then it stands to reason, it will put pressure on others to make up the short fall.

Last edit: by Frenzy

So the "fatherless" society is a choice?  And it is according to the above, the choice of the man who puts providing for his family above sharing the child care responsibilities?  Well, at least we know what is causing the "fatherless" society now.

If parents shared the care of their kids from day 1 then we wouldn't have this problem.  

What I wrote above and the hours worked ect was in regard to highly paid professionals. In jobs that are higher paid/higher life style intrusive, men are more prone to taking them on. Pretty sure the women who are with a CEO, company directors ect are not complaining about the $$$ they bring in. Only have to see how women gravitate towards men with $$$

Does anyone think the wife of the Westpac CEO is complaining about the child caring or financial responsibility not being shared equally???

If a man, in a relationship chooses to work full time or more and a women in a relationship chooses to work part time in a lower paid position or stay home, how does that become the cause a fatherless society?

 The reality is, it does take money along with care to raise a child, both aspects are vitally important.. In the majority of modern relationships fathers work full time and mothers part time, yes it may equate to unequal division on child caring but if you are talking about equality April, then not only should  expect couples to share child care equally from the start but also sd be advocating for couples to also provide an equal income into the relationship from the start. Couples when together tend to go with what suites them as individuals though.

Jobs are increasing in family flexibility for women, certainly in the industries I've worked in women are given more lee-way but if a man chooses to change his work to child friendly hours or part time - it is not often supported by employers. The feminists barrow pushers have campaigned for flexibility for mothers but have not been concerned with fathers and flexible employment. So even if a father wants to cut hours ect they may not have a choice. Employers and big business are placing increasing pressure on workers, they prefer to hire men because of their very nature, it often allows them to be exploited.

However after separation…single mothers can and do react pretty badly when men choose to earn less then what they expect and their child support reduces, can't tell me women themselves don't still have expectations of men being the primary bread winner. Even when men have a large % of care, it still comes down to who gets/pays what.

My OH changed jobs which halved his pay, which would allow him to care for the kids more often, the ex went rank because of the reduction in CS. She blocks all attempts at him providing more care.

It that case it is her choices that are stopping him in increasing participation in the care of the kids, and thus forcing him into increasing his financial contribution and that is why his kids are virtually 'fatherless'. Seems to be the way it goes in many separated relationships…80% of men do pay child support, out of that % how many are being denied from playing an equal deal in providing care? from anecdotal evidence it appears alot.

I don't see how anyone can just blame men working and earning money to provide (many women actually like that arrangement) for creating a fatherless society, women can and do get very nasty when a man doesn't provide enough financially!. Actually it often cited as money being one of the leading causes of divorce in this country.
A good robust discussion covering many extraordinarily complex issues arising, boys and mens health, education, masculinity, female/male dominance and such a  wide range of topics.

IF there is a view that these should be dissected and made into separate topics let us know what topic headings are required otherwise the thread will be left to run its course.

Site Director
So do women really want equality?, appears 2/3's of women want a man who is 'rich' provider so they can stay home an raise the kids. Perhapes women need to look inward at their own expectations. April you might claim, men working is the cause of a fatherless society but what about womens own finical expectations, how can men share caring when women want them to be 'rich' as well. Anyone male or female who earns big money, has to be prepared work extremely hard for it and to make sacrifices. Men don't die earlier then women for no reason, one of the biggest killers or men are occupational factors but as long as can they bring in enough $$$ 2/3 of women will be extremely happy:).

Daily telegraph said
WHAT women really want is to marry a rich man and to stay at home with the kids, a survey has found. Turning back the clock on four decades of feminism, a study has found nearly two- thirds of women would love to find a husband with a bigger pay packet than theirs so they can care for their children full-time.

The UK YouGov survey of 922 women found 55 per cent would like to be home with their children full-time if money was not an issue.

In another study, author Catherine Hakim claimed this week that more women today were "marrying up" by choosing rich husbands. Her London School of Economics research shows 40 per cent of Australian, US and UK women in the 1990s married a man richer than them, compared to just 20 per cent in the late 1940s.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/lifestyle/women-want-to-marry-rich-men-a-new-study-has-found/story-e6frf00i-1225985218362

Frenzy said
 
Does anyone think the wife of the Westpac CEO is complaining about the child caring or financial responsibility not being shared equally???

 

Westpac CEO is a woman.

And if she was married to another CEO and they had kids then yes she would be concerned about sharing child care with her partner.

So much of the man as provider and woman as carer is socially constructed.  Why can't a couple negotiate all this before they have kids.  For example, my son could explain to his future partner that he wants to be more than the provider, he wants to be actively involved in his kids' lives from the start, and then he could make sure he partnered with someone who shared that vision and was equally involved in her own career.
April said
Frenzy said
 
Does anyone think the wife of the Westpac CEO is complaining about the child caring or financial responsibility not being shared equally???

 

Westpac CEO is a woman.

And if she was married to another CEO and they had kids then yes she would be concerned about sharing child care with her partner.

So much of the man as provider and woman as carer is socially constructed.  Why can't a couple negotiate all this before they have kids.  For example, my son could explain to his future partner that he wants to be more than the provider, he wants to be actively involved in his kids' lives from the start, and then he could make sure he partnered with someone who shared that vision and was equally involved in her own career.
 
No it's not, it's a biological reality, just as PND is a genuine reality for many women and things like separation anxiety disproportionately affect mothers of young children. If you believe that this is not so, then you're deluded.

Of course, you're not, just desperately trying to argue in favour of your preferred religion.

On the subject of your son, the problem with your suggestion is that women startout all defermined to do just as you say, then they have kids and everything changes.How does your son enforce the contract when his wife decides that she only wants to work part-time or not at all after she has children, which is the norm? No matter which way you slice it, trying to construct a society that pretends biology is not important is simply irrational.
So man as provider woman as carer is not socially constructed, but biologically driven?  Women are just biologically driven to care for children, but men are not?

How do you reconcile that thinking with notions of shared care of children after separation?  If women are biologically better at caring for kids (Craigo's idea, not mine) then there is no need for courts.  The woman should just care for the kids because of biology?  
April said
So man as provider woman as carer is not socially constructed, but biologically driven?  Women are just biologically driven to care for children, but men are not?

How do you reconcile that thinking with notions of shared care of children after separation?  If women are biologically better at caring for kids (Craigo's idea, not mine) then there is no need for courts.  The woman should just care for the kids because of biology?
 
I didn't say women are "better at caring for kids", they're just more driven to feel like doing so, in the same way that men are more driven to feel like being the provider for their family. Or not, in some cases: have a read of Dawkins's "The Selfish Gene", although I suspect you'd find it beyond you. It is relentlessly logical, after all.

Seriously, you're just playing silly-buggers. If you really want to prove your point, then try to do so, instead of disingenuously misquoting. Unless, of course, that's all you've got in which case you'd do better to just keep quiet. As the old saying goes, it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Women "feel like" taking care of kids more than men do?  Really?  

Well there is another reason for the "fatherless" society then.  The dads don't "feel like" caring for the children.
April said
Women "feel like" taking care of kids more than men do?  Really?

Well there is another reason for the "fatherless" society then.  The dads don't "feel like" caring for the children.
 
Fatuous and shallow,as well as dishonest misquoting. I won't bother with you in future: it's obvious you're no more than a troll.
Craigo said
it's obvious you're no more than a troll.
Please be more specific ETT troll or trollop? Or someone with some serious issues posting here as a form of therapy rather than kicking the cat?
You guys have nothing useful to add, so will put the woman down instead. 

Biology was used as the reason for keeping women down for so long.  "Women aren't smart enough to vote" "Women should be at home taking care of their families because they are too weak to work" "Menstruation causes women to have mental problems" "Women are too stupid to understand finances" etc.

Men and women are BOTH capable of taking care of kids AND earning an income.  We have evolved past the point where we are only driven by biological forces.
It's called modern society.
1 guest and 0 members have just viewed this.

Recent Tweets