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Definitions of actively encouraging your child to see the other parent

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Just would like some clarification if I can.

Is physically forcing, (dragging a child against there will, kicking and screaming No I DONT WANT TO  out of a car) classed as actively encouraging your child to go and spend time with the other parent, or is this classed as abuse.

Where is the fine line??? When do we take into account the right for children to say NO. We tell them one thing but contradict ourselves by making them do another.
parents who take young children to pre school sometimes drag them in kicking and screaming and I often have to physically restrain the kicking and sreaming child as the parents leave……………………….. no it is not abuse it is a parent making a decision in the best interest of the child and eventually the child will recognise this.
red said
When do we take into account the right forchildren to say NO.

When they're 16 years old.

And no, unless the parent is 'smacking' or being verbally abusive towards the child whilst 'dragging a child against there will, kicking and screaming No I DONT WANT TO  out of a car', this is not child abuse. Just bad parenting. And clearly in your example, the parent needs to learn some more effective parenting skills.

4MYDAUGHTER

Sure, you can drag your child kicking and screaming - but why would you?

Sure, you can - but if you had an ounce of respect or love for that child, why would you?

Dragging a child against their will to force them to visit with someone - anyone - certainly sounds like child abuse to me. This sounds like a parent asserting their 0wn rights, not the childs rights, and going to extremes to do so.

Children DO have human rights, and to treat them like animals without brains (you're suggesting it's acceptableto even physically force an adolescent at 15 years old?!) is not only abuse, it's inhuman. Do you really think they're going to thank you in 5 - 10 - 15 years? Or will they simply walk away from a parent that cared so little for their right as a human to make a decision - that that parent decided to use their superior physical strength like a bully, and force them to go with them physically. And where does it end? Do you force feed them their breakfast while they are at that parents house if they're not hungry? Do you force them to have a shower by holding them underneath it?

 And to attempt to compare leaving a child at child care for the day is ridiculous - there is no comparison.

Perhaps the dragging parent should consider why the child feels so strongly or finds the parent in question abhorrent?

I think you already know what your own mother taught you as a child, this is wrong, just plain wrong to treat another human so. Treat them right - they'll want to see you, and run to you willingly.
If a loving and 'meaningful relationship' exists between a child and a parent (as set out in the FLA 2006), then this situation does not occur. Clearly such a relationship does not exist and cannot be forced onto the child. It is probable that Parental Self-Alienation has occurred, whereby the parent has caused the child to dislike the parent and not wish to be with that parent. It is intensely abusive to force a child into such a situation.
Guest said
Sure, you can - but if you had an ounce of respect or love for that child, why would you?

Dragging a child against their will to force them to visit with someone - anyone -certainly sounds like child abuse to me. This sounds like a parent asserting their 0wn rights, not the childs rights, and going to extremes to do so.

Children DO have human rights, and to treat them like animals without brains (you're suggesting it's acceptableto even physically force an adolescentat 15 years old?!) is not only abuse, it's inhuman. Do you really think they're going to thank you in 5 - 10 - 15 years? Or will they simply walk away from a parent that cared so little for their right as a human to make a decision -that that parent decided to use their superior physical strength like a bully, andforce them to go with them physically. And where does it end? Do you force feed them their breakfast while they are at that parents house if they're not hungry? Do you force them to have a shower by holding them underneath it?

And to attempt to compare leaving a child at child care for the day is ridiculous - there is no comparison.

Perhaps the dragging parent should consider why the child feels so strongly or finds the parent in question abhorrent?

I think you already know what your own mother taught you as a child, this is wrong, just plain wrong to treat another human so. Treat them right - they'll want to see you, and run to you willingly.

Your take on the matter far too simplistic. Children from separated homes can act of for all kinds of reasons and there can be complex interpersonal dynamics at play. And its silly drawing generalised conclusions/judgements about this particular behaviour without examining this in context with the child's behaviours generally.

Children don't necessarily 'run to you willingly' nor does the fact that they don't demonstrate that they don't love or like being with a parent.

The poster subsequent to you pointed out that the child in this instance might be demonstrating what Gardiner described as parental alienation syndrome (PAS).

The child in this instance could be 'acting out' in order to demonstrate loyalty to the parent. This acting out might be more to do with the interpersonal dynamics between that parent and the child and like to do with the non-resident parent whatsoever. I've personally witnessed this type of behaviour 'alignment' behaviour with my own daughter when she comes to visit. Had an example of it for the first time in a while yesterday.

Of course, the child in this instance could just be a brat.

The first step - assuming the the parent in this instance has a genuine desire to remedy the situation and is not just looking for an excuse stop the child from seeing the other parent - is to get the child into counselling to determine what the real issues are and address those issues.

Likewise the 'resident' parent should get some assistance - counselling - so that parent can learn some new parenting skills that compliment what issue/needs have been identified in the child counselling.

Ideally, perhaps both parents and the child should attend counselling together, or separately, as recommended by a counsellor. I did exactly this mid 2010 and found it highly beneficial and currently enjoy the fruits of that endeavour today.

4MYDAUGHTER
Sometimes they just don't want to go, especially as they get older!

My son is regularly saying that he doesn't want to spend time with his father. He has gone each time, but I can see a point where he will flat out refuse and there is little you can do with a determined pre-teen/teen who is taller than you other than talk to them about why they don't want to go  :(

"Decide that you want it more than you are afraid of it."
Bill Cosby
 :thumbs:
Guest, your broad-sweeping generalisations are very narrow minded. You suggest there is no comparison between a child not wanting to go with a parent and  a child not wanting to go to daycare. How so? The context varies but the underlying principle is the same - child does not want to do something, and will kick, scream, beg plead and throw a full blown tantrum if need be to get their point across. There are a myriad of reasons why a child might not want to go on any  given day, and this attitude need not be a reflection of relationship issues!

Kids sometimes just dig their heels in, and the fuss and attention that results from an initial tantrum can sometimes be enough to instigate an ongoing pattern - particularly if the end result is that the child gets his/her own way, and a lot of loving, coaxing, soothing attention from parents in the process. Conversely, the initial experience can create a negative association that provokes a sense of anxiety when the situation arises again.

I have a great relationship with my kids, have been their main provider and nurturer for a large portion of their lives. Dropped my daughter at school one morning (which she LOVED), nothing unusual had happened, same old same old. She just suddenly said "I don't want to go today mummy". When I told her she had to, she just became hysterical. The teacher came out and tried to coax her in but she clung to me and wailed like a banshee. Being my first child and first time I'd seen this, I felt terrible, was coddling her, and in all probability my reaction fed hers. Eventually the teacher just picked her up, unhooked her fingers from me one by one and physically took her into class, calm and smiling all the while. It took 2 wks to get her back to a tear-free departure. Interestingly though, the teacher noted that the whole show would cease the moment I was out of sight!

My point is, without the context of an individual situation, you simply cannot assume that to physically pick up a child and take them somewhere they don't want to go, is bullying/ uncaring/ a violation of their human rights, etc. There are many factors to consider:

*How old is the child? We often have to physically make young children do various things if they refuse (eg, come down from the monkey bars). To pick up and restrain a teenager who did not want to visit a parent, would obviously be a different matter.

*Is there a history of abuse that would warrant this reaction? In an otherwise loving and stable relationship, unless the child tells us otherwise, we should not presume to immediately blame the other parent for the child's refusal.

*Is the resident parent's negativity influencing the child's feelings about leaving - intentionally or otherwise? If the child senses that leaving makes mum sad and anxious, this will affect their behaviour!

*Is there parental alienation going on? This obviously speaks for itself. Kids are impressionable, and constant negative programming will elicit a negative response - warranted or not.

Lastly, my children (now 10 and 11), recently came home from a visit with their Dad and wouldn't get out of his car, saying "I don't want to stay here!" and crying loudly as if coming home to me was the end of the world. I was dumbfounded. I had to be the bad guy and sternly order them inside. After talking with their Dad, it turned out that they'd been nagging to stay another night (they always try it on - they're kids!) and their Dad had fallen for their crocodile tears after he said no. But to make matters worse, HE had then started crying out of guilt, and they then felt like they were abandoning him if they left! Hence the desperation to stay. According to guest, should I be trying to figure out why my children find me so abhorrent? It's not a black and white issue. Sometimes as parents, we have to say "do as you're told for now and THEN we will talk about it". Kids aren't always capable of making the best decision on the spot.  
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