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should the father help pay costs

I have fully paid over $6000 for my daughters braces and now my son needs them and they are approx going to cost the same. My ex husband, who is both the childrens father refused to help with any money contribution towards my daughters braces. Is there any way I can legally make him pay for my sons braces as I have already paid in full for my daughter?? Their father has always worked fulltime and has the children one night per week. This hardly seems fair that I have to cover the full cost of both children and get yet another loan when he sits back and pays nothing. I cannot afford a lawyer as this will probably cost as much as the braces. Hope someone can offer advice.
Child Support payments are based upon the cost of the average child, they include all normal costs, as such if the liable parent is paying child support according to the formula then that liable parent is paying for such normal dental treatment. In fact, as the cost of children is based upon the average child costing over $500,000, at a time when the average annual wage was under $50,000 then it is abundantly cleat that the cost of children used in the formula is excessively high. More recent research, instead of summing up all the costs that could be considered looked, at the disposable incomes of families with and without children. The result was that the cost of the average child was about $50,000. One tenth and clearly a more reasonable amount.

As such, assuming that you are in receipt of child support, you should be looking at yourself and how you are meeting your financial responsibility to correctly manage all the money that is meant for the children. Here's a link to the CSA's Me and My Money - Practical money ideas.
MikeT said
Child Support payments are based upon the cost of the average child, they include all normal costs, as such if the liable parent is paying child support according to the formula then that liable parent is paying for such normal dental treatment. In fact, as the cost of children is based upon the average child costing over $500,000, at a time when the average annual wage was under $50,000 then it is abundantly cleat that the cost of children used in the formula is excessively high. More recent research, instead of summing up all the costs that could be considered looked, at the disposable incomes of families with and without children. The result was that the cost of the average child was about $50,000. One tenth and clearly a more reasonable amount.

As such, assuming that you are in receipt of child support, you should be looking at yourself and how you are meeting your financial responsibility to correctly manage all the money that is meant for the children. Here's a link to the CSA's Me and My Money - Practical money ideas.
 
Good advice Mike. I paid for half of my childrens' braces, about $5000. The CSA initially refused to recognise that this was a valid NAP, claiming that only covers dental rather than orthodontic work, but eventually accepted it. Would the OP be prepared to have Dad pay if he was to be credited with a non-Agency payment, meaning his CS liability is reduced?

Your point about the cost of children remains a very valid one and is a cause of a great deal of conflict and stress. I've raised the idea of a levy on all taxpayers before, which would raise the $2.6 billion that is transferred in CS and could be easily administred by existing financial Agencies within the APS, meaning the CSA could be abolished. Total cost of just $5 per week per taxpayer, with the money handed out on a means-tested basis. It could be so easy and it's made so hard…

good advice but this is not the situation and my question wasnt really answered

Thankyou Mike
for your advice on how to spend the entire $30 per month I get child support on my 2 children!!!!! My point being is that he has not ever contributed fairly towards any costs of the children…..
infinity7 said
Thankyou Mike
for your advice on how to spend the entire $30 per month I get child support on my 2 children!!!!! My point being is that he has not ever contributed fairly towards any costs of the children…..
 
If he's been assessed as having a liability of $30 per month, he must be on some form of support payment. How do you suggest he is to raise the money to pay for orthodontic work, which, let's face it, is principally cosmetic anyway in most cases, including my own kids.

What would you consider "fair", in this situation?
He is not on any sort of support and all his expenses are written off as employer benefits. His rent, company car, petrol and phone, he even salary sacrifices towards super annuation. I have given up calling CSA and trying to get what is his " true" wage taken into account. I filled out all the forms for a reassessment and managed to get it up to $350 a month for a year.Even then they said in the interview they could not enforce the payment of this amount unless he agreed to the amount. It iss hurtful to see him going on overseas trips, not work related, and then refusing to help his kids. By the way my sons braces or not for cosmetic reasons!! To be fair is to pay for his sons braces as I have paid for our daughters. As everyone keeps saying on this forum its for the children!  
infinity7 said
He is not on any sort of support and all his expenses are written off as employer benefits. His rent, company car, petrol and phone, he even salary sacrifices towards super annuation. I have given up calling CSA and trying to get what is his " true" wage taken into account. I filled out all the forms for a reassessment and managed to get it up to $350 a month for a year.Even then they said in the interview they could not enforce the payment of this amount unless he agreed to the amount. It iss hurtful to see him going on overseas trips, not work related, and then refusing to help his kids. By the way my sons braces or not for cosmetic reasons!! To be fair is to pay for his sons braces as I have paid for our daughters. As everyone keeps saying on this forum its for the children!
 
Sorry, this doesn't ring true. There is either a lot being left out or it's not correct.

However, you say "To be fair is to pay for his sons braces as I have paid for our daughters.", which is reasonable on the face of it, although not if he simply doesn't have the wherewithal to do so, or even if he doesn't agree that it is a necessary expense. To be fair is to come to an agreement on what is required and who can afford to pay for what and when.

I might also point out that if you have been "attacking" him through the CSA he may well feel as though he wants to "attack" you back. Unfortunately, separating from the other parent of our children doesn't exempt one from the obligation to make every effort to negotiate outcomes. Passing that obligation on to the CSA simply entrenches any resistance to cooperation on the part of the other parent, since the CSA's standard "collection" method is to say "pay or else", then do the "or else" regardless. Hardly conducive to securing willing cooperation.

In my own case I told the CSA to go jump when they wanted me to file a claim against my ex-wife. I told them that I had no wish to inflict their incompetence and bullying on her, as I had lots of first-hand experience of it thanks to her inflicting them on me. I was forced into self-employment out of a very good career because I was unable to support myself, let alone my children, thanks to the CSA's excessive and incorrect claims. How does one live on less than $150 a week when rent, food and fuel all have to be paid for, not to mention trivialities like electricity. I'm afraid nice-looking teeth were simply not a priority.

Today we have a private arrangement and I don't feel like spitting on her every time I see her because I've had my bank account stolen from or been sent a letter 6 days after the deadline for response or one of the other marvellously inventive ways the CSA find to balls things up. Much better all around, don't you agree?
I take great offence to your implication that I am lying. You are imposing your bad experiences upon me and this is no way deserved or helpful. I have been telling CSA for years to investigate his wage. As for "attacking" very stong use of words...personal experiences again??? I did have a personal agreement with my ex 7 years ago and then he stopped making payments to me because he was saving up for a holiday. I am not airing all my personal information about my past with this man on this forum. Funny how he has contributed to the genetics behind the reason for needing braces but isnt willing to pay for the treatment necessary to fix an ongoing problem for my son. Please dont give me anymore of your advice it is not helpful at all.
infinity7 said
I take great offence to your implication that I am lying. You are imposing your bad experiences upon me and this is no way deserved or helpful. I have been telling CSA for years to investigate his wage. As for "attacking" very stong use of words…personal experiences again??? I did have a personal agreement with my ex 7 years ago and then he stopped making payments to me because he was saving up for a holiday. I am not airing all my personal information about my past with this man on this forum. Funny how he has contributed to the genetics behind the reason for needing braces but isnt willing to pay for the treatment necessary to fix an ongoing problem for my son. Please dont give me anymore of your advice it is not helpful at all.
 
Oh, I'm not implying you're lying, merely not giving the whole story. That's understandable, a long story can be very hard to put down on paper in a useful form. All I'll say to you is that you are always better off negotiating than trying to ramrod your view through. I doubt you'll think that's very helpful advice either.

The point about "attacking" is that if one is the subject of CoAs and other action by the payee parent, along with the nasty coercive and threatening stuff from the cSA it feels a lot like being asssaulted. A normal response to an assault is to be defensive.

Perhaps you'd have been better trying to maintain a basic civil relationship rather than involving what has to be the worst-run organisation in Government?
  Infinity7 you may be successful through a COA, I know of another mother in a similar situation with dental work (not cosmetic) who did this and received extra CS to cover the dental issue. Her ex, like yours, was working fulltime and yet had a benefit type low income assessment. In the same Change of Assessment application she applied for an increase due to his undeclared income which may be an idea for you as well.
Thankyou Babygirl for some useful feedback,
I will try a change of assessment again sometimes it just seems so pointless as my daughter turns 18 in a few months and my son 16 at the end of the year..then all payments will stop even though this is when the real expenses occur. Its all the extras not taken into consideration like the once a week tutoring i am paying so that my daughter can improve her maths for her HSC exams ($75), the car I bought her ( which yes was my choice to do), and the insurance for a P plater, rego and and all the 200 hrs I put in teaching her to drive, the extra petrol and professional driving lessons, not to mention schoolies. My son eats more in food than anyone I know lol but thats a growing teenager. But as a mum I bust herself to give my children the best opportunities for their future at least I can sleep well at night knowing I have done the right thing by them. I cannot remember the last time I went out for dinner or bought anything new for myself but these are the selfless things we choose to do for our kids.
This has been a very interesting topic and I can see both sides. I only wish my monthly contributions went to something for the child rather than the mother's whims. Only twelve more monthly payments that are spent on anything but the child. Infinity, my sister is in the same place you are financially and emotionally, always the martyr. If you purchased a car for your child, you're not that hard up.
infinity7 said
Thankyou Mike
for your advice on how to spend the entire $30 per month I get child support on my 2 children!!!!! My point being is that he has not ever contributed fairly towards any costs of the children…..

My advice was not on how to spend the claimed nothing, which has now miraculously grown to $30 monthly, CS payment. I stated "all the money that is meant for the children". You equating this to just $30 received in CS confirms that you need to obtain advice. However, it would appear that the advice/assistance is needed because you simply do not understand what money, at a minimum, should be allocated and managed on behalf of the children as your financial responsibility. "All the money that is meant for the children" isn't restricting the money to CS received. It will either include benefits, such as FTB and the difference between parenting payment single and newstart allowance, which as a tax payer, the child's parent is contributing towards or, if your adjusted income is over the self support amount, your percentage of the cost of the child. The simple fact is that whatever the scenario you will very likely be in receipt of a lot more money for the children than the $30 that you say that you get, if not then the likelihood is that you have failed in your responsibility toward your children by not claiming what is rightfully due to the children.
Thanks soccer dad for your understanding but the little dig at the end was not necessary. How I managed to save is no ones business and its not as if the car is a sports car!
Mike I do understand fully what you are saying as I am not an idiot. It is the contribution the father is paying not FTB I receive, it seems to me that you do not have full time care of teenage children, I only can wish you luck when your children reach this age and if you have full time care!!!
Isnt this whole debate about the fathers contribution not mine!!!!
Infinity7 said
it seems to me that you do not have full time care of teenage children, I only can wish you luck when your children reach this age and if you have full time care!!!
Your assumption of what you derive from what I have posted is incorrect; as could be established from previous posts that I have made. I do have a teenage child and I am the "lives with" parent and I am the assessed recipient of CS, even though the CSA deficiently administered by specifying me as the liable parent. I have also experienced both sides of the coin (i.e. been a liable parent and a recipient). I don't rely upon luck, rather I diligently manage the monies meant for my teen. Part of which is private health cover, which actually isn't, as family dependants are automatically covered so there is no additional cost. I believe that such cover would actually cover a great portion, if not all, of having braces.

Infinity7 said
Mike I do understand fully what you are saying as I am not an idiot.
If you do fully understand then you have purposefully tried to mislead everybody by replying that you have to manage on only $30 a month for the two children.
I will not even justify that with a response MikeT and how dare you say I have miss lead anyone..seems to me you are just using this forum to vent your frustration when it is actually set up for useful advice….let me rephrase my original question in my post……for those of you that can give me HELPFUL advice without any digs, presumptions, false judgements or big long stories about how bad CSA is..I must admit this has surprised me as none of this i expected off intelligent people….Is my ex legally obliged to pay half if not all of the orthodontic work as I have paid in full my daughters??????  A yes or no answer with an explanation would be great.
infinity7 said
Is my ex legally obliged to pay half if not all of the orthodontic work
No.
Infinity - It would seem that your only available avenue with C$A is a COA (change of assessment). C$A are not known (by either side of the fence) to always be fair and equitable in their decisions, so the COA may or may not go your way.

As you have already paid for your daughters dental work, this may or may not go against you, showing that you have capacity etc. If you have already signed the necessary paperwork for your son's orhtodontic work, then this may also go against you. As in, you made the decision without consultation. If however, you did consult the children's father, and he didn't respond, then maybe that is a point in your favour. C$A can be unpredictable. What one may think is a certainty, doesn't get over the line, and other things do.

I've been in your situation, where the father renegged in his promise (yes verbal only) to pay half school fees (his decision to send our son there) and half of the required (non-cosmetic) braces. At the end of the day (don't you just love that saying), all of my children know what their father is like. Strangely enough, once our son turned 18, and his child support obligation ceased, he was gainfully employed. And is now driving around in a another brand new car.

Personally, I think you are on a hiding to nothing. The children are older, nearly off your hands (believe me, they never really go though), and they will know exactly what you have done for them.

You've been through a COA before. The decision is yours as to whether you want to put yourself through that again. Good luck with whatever decision you make.
Thankyou Boots, this mirrors my thoughts and I have never said a bad thing about the childrens father(around them)they are young adults and they have experienced his egocentric personality. Yes they will be 18 soon but I am not like some people who think thats when our financial responsibility ends, when child support ends.... I will keep supporting them and also when they decide to have nothing at all to do with their father. I actually have alot in writing too, that he would be "happy" to pay half school costs, half medical, half braces and he also renegged just like your ex. He also has just moved into a new apartment, and low and behold another trip to the states is planned. I have not become bitter towards anyone, just gets to me at times. Thankyou for your response.
Infinity7 said
I will not even justify that with a response MikeT and how dare you say I have miss lead anyone..seems to me you are just using this forum to vent your frustration when it is actually set up for useful advice….
I understand that you are unable to justify misleading and lying. I know full well that there is no justification for misleading or lying to others, it is plainly wrong. I dare to say that you have lied and mislead people because the fact is that you have mislead people by stating that the other parent pays nothing and then, in your very next post, stating that that the other parent pays CS of $30.

In regard to your hypocritical and false and unfounded accusation that I use this portal(site) to just vent my frustration. It is hypocritical because you yourself are venting your frustration at your purported situation. It is false as there is a great deal of evidence that I do other than just vent my frustration. I believe it is an unfounded accusation as I believe you cannot explain what the frustration is, obviously you are at liberty to expand and tell us what my frustration is or even what my frustrations are.

As for the evidence I was involved in what I believe is the most comprehensive and accurate Australian Child Support calculator that is freely available to all from the home page of this website. I was also as involved in the creation of the other CS calculator that is also available from the home page. I do admit that at times both projects caused frustrations, but I'm at a loss as to how something that is freely provided for all people to use is venting frustration. Obviously as you know my life and everything so much better than myself you can explain exactly how being involved in making that calculator freely available is a vent of my frustration or frustrations. You stated just, that means only and therefore that you have read every single one of my over 17,000 posts, some of which you do not have the access to read. That alone is sufficient to say that you are spouting verbal diarrhoea. However, I'm really curious how you consider that the two CS calculators fall into the category of me venting my frustration.

We next come to what this portal is setup for. You have claimed to know, yet you haven't even got the integrity to check before you spout. Suffice to say that the portal is setup for many purposes and one, as explained in the category name "Let OFF STEAM Venting area and Hyde Park Corner", is low and behold, for venting.

Last, you have the further gall to think that you can order what is and isn't submitted. If people wish to post in the topic with digs (again you prove yourself the hypocrite by making at least one dig(and a lie) about the other parent, with unhelpful advice, presumptions (you take the biscuit for hypocrisy), false judgements (I'm not sure what comes after the biscuit, let's say gold medal for hypocrisy), big long stories or about how bad the CSA is then it will be at the moderators or portal owners discretion not yours. I believe if a sufficient contribution were made then the site rules could be relaxed to suit such a supremacy complex. If you want the power to make such demands then you should go and set-up your own website.
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